Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews          Free Tarot Readings           What's New           Tarot Card Meanings

VII of Cups Symbolism

  > Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Rider-Waite-Smith




 
Laurelle's Avatar
Laurelle  Laurelle is offline
TarotHeaven.com
 
Join Date: 08 May 2014
Location: North America
Posts: 2,670
Laurelle 

Barley, Sam, and friends,

I think I may be going around in circles, and perhaps as usually over thinking things to the point of debauchery (haha)....

I got out the Thoth deck. Crowley calls the 7 of Cups Debauch and the 8 of Cups Indolence.

Isn't alchemy the process of turning metal into gold? But the true gold is actually following ones soul and the messages that lie in front of you in your journey to find enlightenment?

So many men have tried to find meaning with the seven illusions that are on earth? The seven being whatever (fill in the blank), so they look to the jewels, to the woman, to the priestess who is covered, they look at all the seven cups for meaning, but forget that the answer to the quest lies in the seekers soul? And in the process becomes overwhelmed and muddled down?

Is that why Crowley called the card Debauch because it means excess, gluttony and the pursuit of goals that will never materialize. The seven of cups is really just a shadow man looking at all the material pursuits that will never make him happy and so why bother or try?

It's like the person who tries to turn metal into gold. They try and try, but they never succeed. Just as the man in the picture sees many options and tries very hard to turn each into an enlightened experience, but he will never succeed because all the answers were inside of him? All the answers were never in jewels or castles or beautiful women or another prophet (for we are all prophets).

So instead of balancing himself, he goes to the extreme and become lazy, walking away from trying to turn metal into gold. That is why Crowley called the 8 of Cups Indolence? Neither are the right path, but the true path is recognized in the 9 of Cups? Is that what Crowley was going with this?

In regard to Waite and the 7 of Cups, I believe in recognizing the symbolism in many things. If it speaks to me and I listen carefully I find messages in cards, the wind, and coincidences. but it has to speak to each one of us individually, so we are all on different paths, but all trying to get to the same place. So each of us follows our own heart and the way it speaks to us.

Here we are trying to connect many esoteric and occult principles to the 7 of Cups and hence learning things from them. I am not trying to turn metal into gold by analyzing the 7 of Cups to the point of debauchery. I guess I am looking for meaning that will lead me to finding more meaning. It will lead me to discover other things. For instance, I didn't really know much about the 7 deadly sins, nor the 7 and 9 alchemical processes until reading this thread.

PS. My only real knowledge of Alchemy comes from The Alchemist a fiction book by Paulo Coelho that I've read numerous times, so forgive me if I'm adding in fictional references. Sorry if I sound confused.
Top   #41
Barleywine's Avatar
Barleywine  Barleywine is offline
Elder Jabberwock
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Where the wild things are
Posts: 9,055
Barleywine 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelle View Post
Barley, Sam, and friends,

I think I may be going around in circles, and perhaps as usually over thinking things to the point of debauchery (haha)....

I got out the Thoth deck. Crowley calls the 7 of Cups Debauch and the 8 of Cups Indolence.

Isn't alchemy the process of turning metal into gold? But the true gold is actually following ones soul and the messages that lie in front of you in your journey to find enlightenment?

So many men have tried to find meaning with the seven illusions that are on earth? The seven being whatever (fill in the blank), so they look to the jewels, to the woman, to the priestess who is covered, they look at all the seven cups for meaning, but forget that the answer to the quest lies in the seekers soul? And in the process becomes overwhelmed and muddled down?

Is that why Crowley called the card Debauch because it means excess, gluttony and the pursuit of goals that will never materialize. The seven of cups is really just a shadow man looking at all the material pursuits that will never make him happy and so why bother or try?

It's like the person who tries to turn metal into gold. They try and try, but they never succeed. Just as the man in the picture sees many options and tries very hard to turn each into an enlightened experience, but he will never succeed because all the answers were inside of him? All the answers were never in jewels or castles or beautiful women or another prophet (for we are all prophets).

So instead of balancing himself, he goes to the extreme and become lazy, walking away from trying to turn metal into gold. That is why Crowley called the 8 of Cups Indolence? Neither are the right path, but the true path is recognized in the 9 of Cups? Is that what Crowley was going with this?

In regard to Waite and the 7 of Cups, I believe in recognizing the symbolism in many things. If it speaks to me and I listen carefully I find messages in cards, the wind, and coincidences. but it has to speak to each one of us individually, so we are all on different paths, but all trying to get to the same place. So each of us follows our own heart and the way it speaks to us.

Here we are trying to connect many esoteric and occult principles to the 7 of Cups and hence learning things from them. I am not trying to turn metal into gold by analyzing the 7 of Cups to the point of debauchery. I guess I am looking for meaning that will lead me to finding more meaning. It will lead me to discover other things. For instance, I didn't really know much about the 7 deadly sins, nor the 7 and 9 alchemical processes until reading this thread.

PS. My only real knowledge of Alchemy comes from The Alchemist a fiction book by Paulo Coelho that I've read numerous times, so forgive me if I'm adding in fictional references. Sorry if I sound confused.
As I understand it, the alchemical process for creating the "Stone of the Wise" (the figurative "gold" but really an inner transformation) involved "reduction" (I think it was mainly evaporative but it may have been accelerated) that Crowley attributed here to the twin actions of "corruption" (the state of Venus in Scorpio, and in Netzach) and "putrefication," by which the corruption is cleansed and the work is fitted for sublimation (or turning into "gold"). It conjures up all kinds of gross images, but I think his vision was true.
Top   #42
Abrac  Abrac is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 13 Aug 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 4,466
Abrac 

One of the Book T meanings is "Deception in the moment of apparent victory." This seems to fit the cup with the skull on it perfectly. To me it's very hard say this one didn't have GD influence, but how far it goes for the rest of them I'm not sure.
Top   #43
Shardz's Avatar
Shardz  Shardz is offline
Resident
 
Join Date: 21 Oct 2015
Location: Acheron
Posts: 29
Shardz 

This thread certainly did blossom into an epic discussion of theoretical views, philosophies and comparative perspectives that is quite enjoyable, and I agree on all points since my last comment. Regarding Katz and Goodwin, I very hesitantly shared my findings here from The Secrets of the Waite-Smith Tarot book as I would probably be better off learning deep esoteric meanings of the Tarot from Gumby and Pokey. Almost every page is chock full of blasphemous misinformation, and I had to stop reading at chapter one after seeing this:

Hearts = Cups (Bingo! We have a winner!)
Spades = Pentacles (Wrong! Try again.)
Clubs = Swords (Oops! Another -1 point.)
Diamonds = Wands (Really??)

As I have been reading about numerology and astrology, I have not yet tackled alchemy, which is next on my list. I did get quite an eyeful of alchemical blurbs from Duquette's Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot, which is well stated and makes sense with that particular deck. However, I would have no idea of 7 versus 9 transformative stages to complete the philosopher's stone, and I should have known better than to relay speculative theories that are questionable at best.

Yes, I also agree with Ruby Jewel's assertion (as I believe I already stated above) that the core meaning or understanding of each card is perfectly feasible in conducting readings, and one's own intuition is always the best guide, ultimately.

As the core meaning in Waite's card implies visions of grandeur or illusory thoughts, the relative art of the card also seems to imply deeper meanings, such as the skull on the wreath cup; that was no happy accident on Miss Smith's part.

Rachel Pollack mentioned in two of her books that even though these symbols exist and coincide in the same image, they reside within the unconscious and have no outside connection beyond that realm. However, this doesn't exactly clear up any curious inquiries as to what those particular symbols stand for in general, which is how this debate began in the first place.

With the Thoth, we know for a fact that Crowley was all over the symbolism for each card and intensely guided Lady Harris to his ultimate satisfaction. With Waite, there is some doubt he was all that attentive with Pixie in her visual translations of the Minor Arcana, which leaves room for many questions regarding certain symbolisms and their rightful place...not to mention their purpose at times.

I really love both decks, even though they collide in meaning sometimes, but I'm wondering if a second lifetime might be warranted to completely understand them both.
Top   #44
Barleywine's Avatar
Barleywine  Barleywine is offline
Elder Jabberwock
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Where the wild things are
Posts: 9,055
Barleywine 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shardz View Post
With the Thoth, we know for a fact that Crowley was all over the symbolism for each card and intensely guided Lady Harris to his ultimate satisfaction. With Waite, there is some doubt he was all that attentive with Pixie in her visual translations of the Minor Arcana, which leaves room for many questions regarding certain symbolisms and their rightful place...not to mention their purpose at times.

I really love both decks, even though they collide in meaning sometimes, but I'm wondering if a second lifetime might be warranted to completely understand them both.
I share the feeling that Waite may have been a bit negligent (although, in fairness, "indulgent" may be a better term) of Smith's personal perspective on the minor cards. Many I think she nailed, others (probably half a dozen or so) seem to be way out in "left field" from where the GD texts would seem to point them. It's really no problem, since I tend to ignore the "mini-dramas" told by the illustrations and just use the correspondences I internalized long ago. Sometimes the postures, gestures and facing of the figures in the cards are useful indicators, but generally I find the pictures more entertaining than meaningful. The 7 of Cups is a case in point, but not the worst example by far.

I've said before that the Thoth (and especially the Book of Thoth) is a lifetime study and would still most likely escape total comprehension. The same with Liber T, although it's quite a bit less abstruse. The RWS I find the least of the three in that regard, although it's highly effective in some reading situations.
Top   #45
Abrac  Abrac is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 13 Aug 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 4,466
Abrac 

Something occurred to me which I never thought of before. I've always thought the figure covered with a "sheet" was probably an astral; the red outline being astral light. But would an astral being really retain the burial shroud it was buried in? Probably not it seems to me. This reinforces the part played by imagination in this image [Waite's "fantastic spirit"]. All the cups are merely thought forms being projected by the shadowy person. The astral represents what this person imagines it should look like.
Top   #46
Zephyros's Avatar
Zephyros  Zephyros is offline
Jedi
 
Join Date: 31 Jan 2004
Location: Israel
Posts: 8,179
Zephyros 

Oops, posted about the wrong card. Disregard
Top   #47
Ruby Jewel's Avatar
Ruby Jewel  Ruby Jewel is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 02 Apr 2014
Location: around
Posts: 1,401
Ruby Jewel 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrac View Post
Something occurred to me which I never thought of before. I've always thought the figure covered with a "sheet" was probably an astral; the red outline being astral light. But would an astral being really retain the burial shroud it was buried in? Probably not it seems to me. This reinforces the part played by imagination in this image [Waite's "fantastic spirit"]. All the cups are merely thought forms being projected by the shadowy person. The astral represents what this person imagines it should look like.
"The Book of Thoth" by Crowley says the veiled image in this card represents the "unconscious," and the instinct. If you have the same book, it is on Page 168. Also, I find it interesting that the Hanged Man has this same halo around his head....just a different color.....I'm not sure what the colors represent, but no doubt they are significant.
Top   #48
Abrac  Abrac is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 13 Aug 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 4,466
Abrac 

I don't have the book but I have a PDF. What section of the book is it in?
Top   #49
magicjack's Avatar
magicjack  magicjack is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 17 Feb 2013
Location: San Fransisco CA USA
Posts: 509
magicjack 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruby Jewel View Post
I guess what I am getting at here....and trying to say......is that since all the imagery is a figment of the imagination, ie.....no basis in reality........how can the images have any meaning at all since they are just an array of fantasies in a cloud of fog?
I have always seen this card as dreams and schemes. Head up in the clouds. Not being able to focus on one thing. In this persons mind they have already succeeded in greatness but they don't even know what they succeeded in. I don't think we are suppose to know what is under the glowing shroud. And this person doesn't know either. But that is only one of my interpretations of this card. There's a lot of strange stuff going on there. It can mean choices depending on what your asking but I think this person needs to come down to reality and maybe start all over and go in a different direction. Or just one.
Top   #50




 

 


Tarot Cards & Reviews          Free Tarot Readings           What's New           Tarot Card Meanings
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Links
· Tarot
· Tarot Special Interest
· Beyond Tarot
· Forum Library

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Tarot Books
· What's New

Copyright © 1996 - 2020 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.