Book of Law Study Group 1.57

thorhammer

Aeon418 said:
I don't know. As far as I'm aware I never even suggested that.

Okay, fair point

I guess there is something in the tone of this whole thread that made me think someone was positing that.

At certain times one choice may be in accordance with Will, and at other times it won't. But this is a choice that is present throughout life. It's not a rubicon that is suddenly passed and can never be changed again. Situations and context are forever changing, and so do our choices.

Exactly what I was getting at, thankyou.

\m/ Kat

Always Wondering

thorhammer said:
Okay, fair point I guess there is something in the tone of this whole thread that made me think someone was positing that.

Sorry, Kat. It was sort of me.

AW

thorhammer

Always Wondering said:
Sorry, Kat. It was sort of me.

AW

LOL no worries! It's at least made me think very hard about the verse!

\m/ Kat

RLG

Aeon418 said:
But is it really the letters that are switched? If you actually look at what Crowley says in the Book of Thoth you will notice that he never mentions switching letters. Instead he talks about exchanging cards or a counter change in the positions of cards. On the Tree of Life this is exactly what happend. Heh and Tzaddi never moved. It was the positions of the cards and their astrological associations that moved. This same change in positions between Aries and Aquarius is mirrored in the zodiac loop diagram.

I'm baffled how so many people can claim to have read Crowley and then ignore what he said in favour of a letter swapping exercise. But it's clear that Crowley didn't see it that way. He only talks about the positions of cards. And this is the same reasoning he gives for the double loop. It's a change in positions.

Place the cards in the order they descend the Tree of Life (according to the alphabet sequence). Now Aquarius and Aries are out of position. One loop.
Now follow the normal order of Tarot. Libra and Leo end up out of position this time. Second loop.

And if you want two loops together, place the cards in the normal Tarot order and then follow Crowley's instructions and counter-change the positions of XVII and IV. We may not be able to swap numerals, so swapping positions is the next best thing.

Dwtw

Well, I'll have to jump in again, just to clarify a point.
What you say is correct re: what AC discusses, so very briefly, in the Book of Thoth. He only talks on pp.9-10 about 'positions' and this presumably means the positions of the cards on the Tree of Life.

For my part, I haven't discussed the Tree of Life positions. I have only been talking about a supposed 'double loop' in regards to the Tarot Trumps themselves, and their Hebrew and zodiacal attributions.

When the Hebrew letters stay in the same place and you switch the cards around on the Tree of Life, the exact same results can be seen in two different ways.

Did he switch letters or cards? Well, he switched the cards from where the GD had them on the Tree, and at the same time he switched the letters from where the GD had them on the Tarot cards.

So it's merely two sides of the same operation.
You're focusing on one aspect of it, and I on another. And it is obviously just as true to say it either way, because when looking at the Tarot cards in isolation, then certainly the letters have been switched between the Star and the Emperor. And looking at AC's ToL diagram, then the cards have been switched between the 15th and 28th paths... (but so have the zodiac signs, which is the sticking point).

As for the double loop, you're making my point, which is that he never accomplished it. Even if, as you say, the double loop is all about two loops ON THE ToL, then AC didn't do this. To accomplish that we would have to swap Strength/Leo and Adjustment/Libra, (but of course leave the letters in their appropriate spots). But then, he never specified that the double loop had anything to do with the ToL, he just said it was in 'the zodiacal attribution', and this could mean to the card or to the paths. It could NOT mean the attribution to the letters, because although that changed, it was only one loop (Heh-Tzaddi)-- the zodiacal attributes of Tet and Lamed have not changed.

And since the ToL paths of Tet and Lamed have also not changed, one is right to conclude that the loop he is talking about is with the Trump sequence as it relates to the cards. The zodiac signs of Leo and Libra remain in the same spots on the Tree, so how could AC be considering them as making a loop? It can only be in reference to the zodiacal sequence of the Trumps. This is mainly why I chose not to bring in the ToL as part of the discussion, because it only muddies the waters, and it's a murky enough subject as it is. But it's good that you mention it, for the sake of completeness.

No matter how you slice it, there is no double loop in the zodiac. Or to be more precise, the two loops of the Thoth Tarot are of different kinds:

There is a single loop in the GD Tree of Life zodiacal paths.
(Aries-Aquarius switch)
There is a single loop in the Tarot Trump zodiacal sequence.
(Leo-Libra switch)

Well, I'd better stop now, I'm sure the topic has become tiresome for others besides myself. Thanks for your input.

Litlluw
RLG

ravenest

RLG said:
The only reason that the double loop even comes up is because Crowley used it to justify his change. But the justification is spurious. So if you advocate for the change, that's fine, but using the double loop as the reason is fallacious.

Worse! Crowley gave this double loop THEORY as the ultimate proof of the Book of the Law !???? Surely he could have found a better one? I thought 'sucess' would be the best proof?

Hey RLG, did you check the other threads here on Tz not Star? It all sounds VERY familiar. Double Loop? - apples and oranges!

I'm still opting for the botched together BoT theory. Does anyone know the compilation / publication history of this book? I am sure (IMO) that no one sat down and collated and corrected the material so it was consistant. A lot of it came from different time periods, some is in there with no explaination. We have a simple reference to the 'astrology' of some cards (leading to one obvious conclusion) yet in tables this same astrology incorporates off the (common) ecliptic constellations.

Grigori

RLG said:
I'm sure the topic has become tiresome for others besides myself.

Not me, I'm enjoying it immensely. Thanks everyone for putting so much effort into getting these ideas out there. I'm learning to read more carefully too.
*Cracks open his Book of Thoth again*

ravenest

thorhammer said:
The thing is . . . I don't see anything in the verse that suggests one, final, all-or-nothing choice. It suggests to me that one has recourse to two different courses of action, much as AW gave her children , in any given situation. We have two different ways of applying the law of Love under Will.

I did karate for a long time. The style I studied was called GoJu, meaning hard-soft. In any situation, we had a split second to decide to employ a soft technique or a hard, so all our training was geared not only toward learning those techniques and their absolute mastery, but which to employ in what set of circumstances.

Why only one?? I simply do not see why only one, when both are as valid . . . but only one might be effective in a particular situation.

\m/ Kat

Good point! Perhaps some have been thinking the opposite!

(using your karate analogy - I can relate; I'm into Shorin-ryu) some people seem so set in their ways that their 'mode' is with them for life, always too soft or too strong. Responding instead of reacting works well ... appropriate response.

It might be a very interesting exercise for some to stop and think, in certain situatuions, 'Am I going to be the dove here or the serpent?'

ravenest

But then ...

One could just accept that Tz isnt the Star - and that's it. BoL never says what is ... or what should be ... not directly.

So basically, I just leave it. I dont think it has ever been overtly relevant in any of my readings of Tarot for myself or others, so I couldnt care less really. I have learnt MUCH bigger, important and relevent lessons from Tarot, Thoth and BoL.

Tz is not the Star ... fine ... what is? Doesnt really matter!
(Ravenest ducks several flying shoes)

Always Wondering

Well maybe I am in a difficult mood, but "hath" is singular.

Maybe it has something to do with secret initiation stuff.

Elisabeth Haich's quote was helpful, Aeon418, thank-you again. You've got to stop answering my posts before I'm done writing them though. It's a little bit spooky. :laugh:

I am going to bed and read some Paul Foster Case.
That always helps.

AW

Aeon418

RLG said:
Well, I'll have to jump in again, just to clarify a point.
What you say is correct re: what AC discusses, so very briefly, in the Book of Thoth. He only talks on pp.9-10 about 'positions' and this presumably means the positions of the cards on the Tree of Life.

Not the way I read it.(pp.9-10) Crowley is clearly talking about both the Tree and the Zodiac. He says the positions of XVII and IV must be counter-changed and then launches straight into his zodiac spiel, where he uses this position change as justification for Aries and Aquarius revolving around Pisces.

RLG said:
You're focusing on one aspect of it, and I on another.

But I'm looking at it from the same angle that Crowley did.

RLG said:
And looking at AC's ToL diagram, then the cards have been switched between the 15th and 28th paths... (but so have the zodiac signs, which is the sticking point).

Yes, this is the sticking point. But it's clear that Crowley thought signs went with cards.

RLG said:
As for the double loop, you're making my point, which is that he never accomplished it. Even if, as you say, the double loop is all about two loops ON THE ToL, then AC didn't do this.

Lay the cards out in TdM order. Libra and Leo are looped. Now counter-change XVII and IV. Now Aries and Aquarius are looped as well.

It all goes back to what I originally said about about swapping the numerals. That would have been the easiest solution, but it can't be done. So Crowley went for second best and swapped the positions.

RLG said:
Or to be more precise, the two loops of the Thoth Tarot are of different kinds

This is what I have already said several times. Since the first swap involved Roman numerals, the prohibition against this in the second case means that the balancing swap must be different.

Book of Law Study Group 1.57

thorhammer

Always Wondering

thorhammer

RLG

ravenest

Grigori

ravenest

ravenest

Always Wondering

Aeon418