Forgiveness and Thelema??

Thorhammer: I meant more that the vast majority of people in the new New Age section of society have taken the warm fuzzy purple-glitter-and-faeries-of-light-with-soft-marshmallow-kisses bits that they found in the GD/Thelemic upsurge, and run with it. Consequently, we have a whole subset of society (and moreso commerce) that caters to the wish of the masses to congratulate themselves for being mediocre. Scion says it so much better than I do . . .

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Loud applause from me! We are agreed. I love the "warm fuzzy purple-glitter-and-faeries-of-light-with-soft-marshmallow-kisses" phrase - you and Scion both, neatly and clearly say it like it is.

But remember that the 'whole' only travels/evolves as fast as the slowest component, and commerce, especially, is bent on retaining their position within the whole. I think they more than 'cater' to wish of the masses, they are earnestly creating a market to maintain their 'hold'.

But keeping to the topic, can we forgive them? (I'm a meany = I understand but deplore them).

Bee

thorhammer said:

But it's the last sentence that has really helped me the most, coz it's so true. It helps me to be a little gentler to myself. And maybe to others, too . . . if they're lucky

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This is one of the funny things about existence. We incarnate to experience life from a unique point of view. But from the moment we get here we do everything in our power to try to be someone else.

The process of self-revelation can't really begin until you learn to live within your own skin and start to embrace your own uniqueness. This has an interesting side effect. Acceptance of self leads to acceptance of others. No sooner do you begin to appreciate the difference within yourself, you also begin to see the same quality in other people. Instead of difference being perceived as a threatening deviation from the "norm", it becomes a point of intense interest that reveals the amazing richness and variety inherent in human life.

This is why I find it bizarre that people can point to Crowley as an example of someone who was flawed. This presupposes that someone can know another persons Will, or direction in life, better than they know it themselves.

thorhammer said:

so although I know I'm flawed (as in, my true self has been corrupted by conditioning and life experience lived wrongly), I'm still aiming high.

\m/ Kat

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I get what you are saying and it is hard putting this stuff into words. I do wonder if life can be "lived wrongly", I am more comfortable with "perceived" wrongly. Change "flaw" to "error" and I won't embarrass you and get all "new-age" and proclaim your perfection. But I am highly tempted.

Dr. Paul Foster Case said:

An error is always a half-truth. You don't have to get rid of your errors. What you have to do is to take the truth that is in them, and complete your realization of it.

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AW

Always Wondering said:

I get what you are saying and it is hard putting this stuff into words. I do wonder if life can be "lived wrongly", I am more comfortable with "perceived" wrongly. Change "flaw" to "error" and I won't embarrass you and get all "new-age" and proclaim your perfection. But I am highly tempted.

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Well, thankyou But I definitely think that life can be lived wrongly. I have made wrong decisions in my life, I know that. I have learnt from them, which redeems them as not entirely a waste of time, but it would have been better if, in the first place, I had done what I knew was right rather than what seemed easier or more fun.

Just the other day, I sat down to drink most of a bottle of wine, after spending most of this year dry. I did it belligerently, knowing that I was making a mistake and that I was doing it for all the wrong reasons (one of those being to inflict my drunkenness on my boyfriend) . . . yet I still did it. I knew it was wrong. I made the wrong decision.

So, maybe there's not just right and wrong - there's also "usefully misguided" .

\m/ Kat

thorhammer said:

I did it belligerently, knowing that I was making a mistake and that I was doing it for all the wrong reasons (one of those being to inflict my drunkenness on my boyfriend)

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I've done this too, and "worse". Let's face it, if Crowley doesn't shock me maybe nobody will.
This is just my, possibly unThelemic, opinion but it's not easy living in skin. They don't call it the Great Sorrow for nothing. I think everyone has their escapes, some healthier than others. I hope you don't have to beat yourself up too long, though I completly understand it. Been there.

If I was there I would make you a cup a tea and I would tell you all about my belligerent inflictions. You never know, I might even shock you.

AW

forgiveness

I know this may sound a bit new age, or borrowed from self help programs, I find they all have interconnecting bits. I struggled with the concept of forgiveness for a long time. I had issue with allowing such behavior and transgressions upon me. It has taken me a long time to let that go. Forgiveness is not about letting the other person or persons off the hook, but setting yourself free. Holding those grudges only hurts you. As in all things, the forgiving and letting go is a process.

Frgivness?

Forgivness? Crap! Go back there and fix up the thing you did that you think you need forgivness for. That's my take on it.

I'm reverse catholic ... I dont believe in spiritual christian forgivness ... like being a sh*t all your life and then getting forgivness so you can go to heaven, what a cop out!

I dont want to forgive someone that ripped me off ... I want the money back.
If I smash your car, I dont want forgivness or acceptance of pathetic excuses or anything, I will want to fix your car (and lend you mine while yours is being fixed).

I have a friend who's ex (and the 3 babies father) keeps ripping her off. Visists his kids and steals their food money when she isnt looking. He admitted it when she rang him but then said "At least I own it. I'm sorry, I cant help myself, I have an uncontollible drug problem."

"What! Bullshit! Did he pay you back ... or even offer to pay you back?" I asked her. .... of course he didnt.

Forgivness - crap! Just an excuse to make those that trash others feel better about it. Don't do it in the first place ... if you do, do whatever you can to make it right.

Eh?

And Thelema started the New Age?

Really!?

I thought it was all that acid back in the 60's.

Or are we talking some type of new manifestation here; Neo-thelema?
:shudder:

ravenest said:

Forgivness? Crap! Go back there and fix up the thing you did that you think you need forgivness for. That's my take on it.

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Exactly. Brooding on mistakes doesn't accomplish anything. It just makes the hole seem even deeper. But for some people the 9 of Swords is their favourite card in the whole deck.

ravenest said:

I dont want to forgive someone that ripped me off ... I want the money back.

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Ravenest, I think this needs a bit of clarification. I know where you are going, but it does skate perilously close to an endorsement of hanging on to bitterness and resentment. Which leads us straight back to our good old friend the 9 of Swords.

I will maintain my opinion ... until I get the money back!

But I see your point, maybe I wont be 'bitter', but I will remember! I wont lend that person money again. Unless before they borrowed it they said "I dont know how, when or if ever I'm going to be able to pay you back." They could have been honest in the first place.

Part of the blame will rest with me, for being stupid or not observant enough, or maybe I did it to see if the person is trustworthy.

Learn from the mistake and move on. But dont forgive (forget) the lesson.

Really, there is nothing to forgive in the first place ... but there might be things to ADJUST.

I suffer, and will suffer for the rest of my life from a smashed shoulder. My karate instructor did it to me. I didnt need to forgive him becasue what difference will it make, he shouldnt have done it and he knows that. But I'm still friends and still train with him ... but I am a LOT more carefull OF him becasue now I know he can do silly and innapropriate things and break the teacher student trust. I might still make smart comments about it, I'll warn people about him but I'm NOT going to gloss it over. I'm not going to invent reasons in my head and 'forgive' him - no, he shouldn't have done it!

"Are you still holding on to that?" I've been asked about some things. ???? What's the point of forgetting important lessons we learn in life?

Some of you might think I'm mixing apples and oranges, mixing up forget and forgive, yet in my experience, a lot of the time, those that 'forgive', 'forget' and round and round they go on the wheel having the same shit thing happen to them (offen by the same person) over and over again.