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NMVanessa 
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Join Date: 08 Mar 2017
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Thoth major arcana metaphors


Hi all! I'm new here but I have searched the forums and gotten some useful info but this is what I would like more experienced help with.
All the cards are archetypes but the major arcana are the more complex ones. When explaining archetypes to people, I find it helpful to be able to name pop culture (real or fictional) examples. Problem is, I'm not up on a lot of pop culture and also, I don't fully understand some of the cards.
I'm good with the Fool, the most ubiquitous archetype, I think. I can say Pan, Peter Pan, Chance the Gardener and Forrest Gump.
Yoda is the Magus all over! I have a couple others but I really would like a database of analogies.
So when you all are talking to others, what correlations and analogies do you use?
V
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Jupiter Caelus 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMVanessa View Post
Hi all! I'm new here but I have searched the forums and gotten some useful info but this is what I would like more experienced help with.
All the cards are archetypes but the major arcana are the more complex ones. When explaining archetypes to people, I find it helpful to be able to name pop culture (real or fictional) examples. Problem is, I'm not up on a lot of pop culture and also, I don't fully understand some of the cards.
I'm good with the Fool, the most ubiquitous archetype, I think. I can say Pan, Peter Pan, Chance the Gardener and Forrest Gump.
Yoda is the Magus all over! I have a couple others but I really would like a database of analogies.
So when you all are talking to others, what correlations and analogies do you use?
V
Archetypes come in varying levels of complexity and depth. While Forrest Gump and Yoda may be sufficient icebreakers for the very green, it losses a certain meaning to the cards that would otherwise reveal tnemsleves when not impeded by the, shall I say 'energy', of pop culture.
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Michael Sternbach 
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A good book on archetypes as linked with the Major Arcana is Sallie Nichols' Jung and Tarot: An Archetypal Journey.
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Beira 
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I have Nichols' book and even tho I have not gone through the whole of it (yet), it is a very good and expanded research has over archetypes.. I use it mainly as reference when I want to go deep in one of the majors
Another one is by Yogorowsky: he is all the rage about tarot in Italy right now, even tho I am not an enthusiast.. He talks about Marseille decks that I don't know at all..
Anyone has any opinion on Yogorowsky'so work in general? Even ever heard of him? He does publish in English so I am hopeful to get some infos
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Nemia 
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Pop culture associations function only to a certain degree. When I want to explain what an archetype is, I usually use examples from mythology, folklore, fairy tales... and only then popular everyday culture, to show how these archetypes live on.

The fact that astronomers (even modern ones) and psychologists use mythological names and thus keep archetypical figures alive where we wouldn't suspect them also helps. Even a computer term like Trojan horse comes from the depths of the Western culture. I see the archetypes enacted in those myths that our culture is built upon, and they're still able to evoke emotions and a whole net of associations.

Jean Shinoda Bolen's books about female and make archetypes are not directly connected to tarot but I found reading them very instructive. She shows how archetypes live within our souls. I understand better now why I always loved Aphrodite, Hestia and Demeter...

The Cosmic Tarot by Norbert Lösche depicts Old Hollywood movie stars in some major arcana, all court cards and also some minors. I have always liked that deck. I think it reflects the continuity of archetypes. I don't see it at all as effort to cash in on celebrities - the artist also used ballet scenes, 19th century paintings and many stars who are less well-known today. He was hunting archetypes and he found them.

I"m currently teaching a course on mythology where I try to do something similar. I try to show that the old gods and myths are not dead. We don't listen to Hesiod's stories any more if we want to know how the world came to be, we read Stephen Hawking, but I see Hawking as Hesiod's heir.

Sorry I didn't answer your question directly but this topic is so huge that a lifetime of thinking and reading about it is not enough...

Oh and concerning the Thoth - I think that Crowley played with archetypes, he changes their context and breaks away from Western tradition. In the new Eon, the old archetypes change. Besides, his fascination with Egyptian mythology trumps the Greek any time in his deck. And that changes also the whole Graecocentric Western value system.

I don't think even a whole bunch of pop culture characters could catch that. I see little in common between Peter Pan and the Thoth Fool. A bit but not enough to understand what Crowley did with this card.

And a last addition: I don't want to answer a question about Jodorowsky in this thread, I don't think it's the right place and people who look for answers to that question would never find it here.

Last edited by Nemia; 6 Days Ago at 06:40.
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ravenest 
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I enjoyed reading this post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post
Pop culture associations function only to a certain degree. When I want to explain what an archetype is, I usually use examples from mythology, folklore, fairy tales... and only then popular everyday culture, to show how these archetypes live on.
I would recommend Liz Green's Mythic tarot for NMV (OP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post
The fact that astronomers (even modern ones) and psychologists use mythological names and thus keep archetypical figures alive where we wouldn't suspect them also helps.
I have had a recent foray into those areas ( astronomy / physics ) and looking at some correlations between nwere ideas about 'Big Rip / Expansion ' and ideas in Vedanta - very interesting ! With mythology, I found an excellent analogy for psychological processes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post
Even a computer term like Trojan horse comes from the depths of the Western culture. I see the archetypes enacted in those myths that our culture is built upon, and they're still able to evoke emotions and a whole net of associations.

Jean Shinoda Bolen's books about female and make archetypes are not directly connected to tarot but I found reading them very instructive. She shows how archetypes live within our souls. I understand better now why I always loved Aphrodite, Hestia and Demeter...

The Cosmic Tarot by Norbert Lösche depicts Old Hollywood movie stars in some major arcana, all court cards and also some minors. I have always liked that deck. I think it reflects the continuity of archetypes. I don't see it at all as effort to cash in on celebrities - the artist also used ballet scenes, 19th century paintings and many stars who are less well-known today. He was hunting archetypes and he found them.

I"m currently teaching a course on mythology where I try to do something similar. I try to show that the old gods and myths are not dead
I wish I was a student in your class !

One thing I am on the track of , still hunting, is that myths follow a pattern with 'nodes of experiences and interactions' and various character trait ; these can be re-arranged or reversed to make types of variant formulas - now, if we eliminate the 'dressing' around the formular and pattern, and just look at the permutations of inner content we can see them still occurring today and acting out in the psyche of many individuals.

One freaky thing I encountered was Harpur's outline in his 'Daimonic Reality' of certain 'strange psychological dynamics' ; shamanic initiation experiences ( The Sharman allows, sometimes horrible and gruesome transformations done to his ' astral' body by others ; spirits, totems, ancestors, etc and emerges as a new born person . In our aberrant society , or just in an aberrant person , some psychopaths have done the same, but sort of in reverse; a real person, takes another against their will, does similar horrible and gruesome things to them ( I will leave out the details of how both compare ) and leaves them dead .

I have noticed this when doing an astrological analysis ( the way I do it ) and looking deeply into the mythological energy that makes up the symbols .... one example is the remarkable influence venus can have , in certain relationships in the chart, its phenomenal. One woman I know seems to live out the associated mythology in her life, in modern terms of course; relating to Aphrodite ... she gets in soooooo much trouble in that area ... I mean real trouble ! before I realised this I used to council her as she asked me for some help . I tried reasoning but thats not on - she insisted its beyond her control ' I just cant help it ."

I thought that was rubbish, but later more research revealed interesting dynamics. Even the name Venus is related to veneres - a poison or potion ... like a love charm ... like one one has been drugged and one cannot control the effects the drugs are having on you .

It even got to the stage where the last 3 guys she had 'unusual' relationships with all had a lame leg !

( For folks that dont realise , in mythology, Aphrodite's husband Hephaestus was lame in one leg ... and she was having a 'wonton affair ' on the side with Mars .... she did that too .... of course, this Mars / Venus dynamic is the basis behind many relationships of 'a certain dynamic ' . )


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post
. We don't listen to Hesiod's stories any more if we want to know how the world came to be, we read Stephen Hawking, but I see Hawking as Hesiod's heir.
Hmmm , I will have to revisit him ..... I had an amusing foray into Ovid ... and put up one of my pieces of writing here somewhere, based on one of his stories ( well, partially plagiarized actually .... about a Raven ... of course ... I will see if I can find it .

( edit in ; http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=206257 )

I was recently admonished by some person for conflating science with 'magical thinking' . I suggested many ideas in both were similar - IF one understood them - they scoffed at me . Then I asked them what they thought about scientists naming , just one, of a quark's properties as ' charm ' and why they think the scientists did that .

No answer as yet

This person claims not to be able to visualise or process an image ! I guess tarot is WAAAAY out for them .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post

Sorry I didn't answer your question directly but this topic is so huge that a lifetime of thinking and reading about it is not enough...
Let's start a whole site about it



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post

Oh and concerning the Thoth - I think that Crowley played with archetypes, he changes their context and breaks away from Western tradition. In the new Eon, the old archetypes change. Besides, his fascination with Egyptian mythology trumps the Greek any time in his deck. And that changes also the whole Graecocentric Western value system.
Yes. But then again, there does seem a case for that being 'Egyptian' in the first place ... or maybe , an Egyptian impetus, further formed during the 'Alexandrian Synthesis' .

But you are right ... we 'consider' the source of western value system Greek ( plus some dreaded 'economic rationalism' .... urk !


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post

I don't think even a whole bunch of pop culture characters could catch that. I see little in common between Peter Pan and the Thoth Fool. A bit but not enough to understand what Crowley did with this card.
.
' The Magus ' - ;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guVAeFs5XwE



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