Aleister Crowley's Thoth - should i or shouldn't i ? Any advice would be welcome!

Scion

I second that Lil (or third that, Kat!)

). The thing is, the deck itself is a perfectly wonderful place to start studying. It is itself a study document even if you aren't consciously "cramming" esoetric discplines. And they WILL leak into you osmotically. "Enough" can be a dangerous word indeed...

Cerulean

My only suggestion is start with what appeals to you.

In my case, I had the Mueller edition--the 1986 in the blue box, the largest.

I've gone through different books as companions and different sizes of decks.

For me, the Thoth books I went through were fine in retrospect to help me grow with the pictures and to assist in exploring. I've only kept a few of those handbooks--such as two different sizes of the Crowley Book of Thoth for portability--more important to me is that I kept the deck that worked for me for reference.

I was always grateful to have kept the largest deck for study and clear colors. I actually also recently found a used version, a softer faded and used light-blue framed deck -- it turns out some of the older vintage books I have with tarot relevance also have the same faded owner's label.

I don't feel my vintage Thoth or used books are haunted in any way. I just feel like I inherited an older student's carefully studied and valued books and decks.

I like to think of the art as 'art deco' with forward-looking symbolism as well as some finer artistic lines,classic grace and nicer colors than some other 20th century Golden Dawn style decks.

Hope you enjoy the art and don't mind just coming back to it, if it takes time to absorb things a little at a time.

Best wishes,

Cerulean

chriske

Lillie said:
I'm not really wanting to criticise, or anything because I know what you are saying and it's good advise, but I have always felt that posts like this (especially 'need to read more on Quaballah and astrology') can put people off the Thoth big time.

I don't mind criticism. I could have said "you may find that you need to read more on Qaballah and astrology" but that would have been less than honest.

Lillie said:
You see I have heard it said many times that the Thoth is difficult, that it needs study, that you have to learn Quaballah and astrology and geomancy and god knows what else.

Trying to remove astrology and the tree of life from the Thoth is like trying to remove the meat from the hamburger.

Lillie said:
I have also heard people say they will start using the Thoth when they have learned more. Or they can't use it until they have done enough study. And most of the time I am sure that most of that learning and study never gets done and so the Thoth never gets used because it has this reputation for being difficult.

I take it that you are talking from your own experience here. But you only get out what you put in.

Lillie said:
And yes, of course it can be approached like that, and all those difficult things do illuminate the symbols and the meanings of the deck.

Agreed.

Lillie said:
But!

A wise person once told me that everything before the "but" is b*llsh*t.

Lillie said:
But the lack of this knowledge shouldn't stop people from using it, and the fear of this knowledge shouldn't be a bar, and the thoughts that 'Oh I will never learn all that' shouldn't stop someone from picking up the Thoth and giving it a go.

I absolutely agree. I would never consider trying to stop people from picking up the Thoth and doing what they like with it. Someone new to the Thoth (and in this case, new to Tarot) will either want to find out more about the symbolism or not. You are quite correct.

Lillie said:
I have said this before and I suppose in time I will say it again, but for me the best illustration of this is myself.

This is what I wrote to someone yesterday in a PM

A long time ago (early 80's) when I was about 18 I got a deck of tarot cards, 1JJ swiss, and I didn't like them so I went and got me a Thoth, because Crowley was cool and I was a bit gothy and all that.
I have to say I knew nothing, but that didn't stop me and over the years I learned stuff, and it's like the Thoth was always there for me, and I learned along side it, I learned as I went along.
And there was no time when I thought that the deck needed too much study, or that I didn't know enough.
It was always like it met me wherever I was at the time.
And as well, it has never been like I finished learning with it, like I knew all there is to know. There is always more.

It's a deck that grows with you.
Or at least that's what I found.

I envy you! That's very illuminating.

Lillie said:
And so I am a big believer that anyone can use this deck, they can use it intuitively, or they can use it astrologically, or Quaballistically (if that's a word!) and it don't matter.
Learning will come if that's what people want.
But learning will never come if people are too put off by the reputation of this deck to ever start.

That may be true of some people. I don't think that it's true of everyone as it's quite a big generalisation of people and their reasons for any kind of esoteric study.

Lillie said:
'I will begin using the Thoth when I have learned enough' is one of the saddest things I have ever heard about Tarot.
It shouldn't be like that, people shouldn't think like that.
Instead they should think (if they want to use this deck) 'I will learn enough while I use the Thoth'.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I don't mind that but I think I should have a right to reply. Keeping away from the Thoth until you know more is indeed sad.

The traditional wisdom is that it is not a suitable deck for newcomers. If you disagree with that opinion then that's OK with me. And I will probably back you up. But let's not gild the lily. Or hide from the facts that the deck is loaded with astrological, alchemical and qaballistic symbols.

Lillie said:
It's much better that way.
Really it is.

Learn as we go - spot on.

Lillie

Hi.

Yeah, I'm sorry my post came across as so much an argument with yours.
It wasn't meant to be, it was just meant to be an alternative view.

Either or, not instead, if you see what I mean.

The bit where you said I was putting words in your mouth, no, I wasn't. (or at least I wasn't trying to)
What I said about 'I will learn Thoth when I have studied enough' isn't what you have said, it's what I have heard said by a number of people on this forum over the years.
People who think they would like to learn the Thoth but feel they can't because they don't know enough yet.
And that does make me sad because I feel they should just pick it up and give it a go anyway.

I never intended to imply that you had said that you needed to study before using the Thoth or anything like that.
It was not what you said and I apologise if my phrasing made it seemed like I was saying that...

I totally agree with you that as someone uses the Thoth they often find they want to learn all sorts of other things too, to make more sense of it.
I agree.

But I also know that right at the beginning if I had been told that I would need to learn astrology and quaballah and all that I might well have got a deck that I felt was more immediately accessible instead, and then look at what I would have missed out on!

It turned out that I wanted to learn a lot of that stuff after I'd got into using the Thoth, but I'm damn glad that I didn't feel the weight of all Crowleys erudition and learning when I was first choosing the deck!

And as the OP in this thread is just beginning with the Thoth, and wondering is she should buy it and start at all, and considering there are a lot of beginners who look at these threads I like to give an alternative view point about the studying business, as I reckon that can put people right off.

So.
If my post came across as wrong, or too critical of what you said, I do apologise, I can only say that I chose my words badly.
I hope I have clarified what I was trying to say.
I hope I have not made it even more obscure!

But if you felt I was having a go at you, I wasn't intending to, so please, forgive me.

gregory

I didn't read your post that way at all. I was just thinking Amen - I had always felt I HAD to study to get anything from it - and Lord knows I've tried (YOU know I've tried !!!) - but so far I am still well mired in it all - even though I HAVE read the Book and so on. And I have read loads of threads here and asked silly questions from people who know their stuff. But - I can and do read with it and it is a great experience when I do. I would hate not to have dared try....

MagsStardustBlack

My goodness, those recent posts were interesting. I don't yet know how to "quote" a post so i'm talking in general, i really appreciate all these powerful opinions and views that everyone has contributed to give a wider view of the whole subject in question. And yes i agree that probably lots of other new comers who are interested in the Thoth will be reading this thread, and it is good for them also to see the different opinions.

I however would be looking to learn these cards intuitively from the beginning, with a little background knowledge on AC and Thoth, that is all and there after learn bits as i go with no pressure.

I am extremely lucky in that i do have a strong intuition to start with, that is why i decided to use Tarot in the first place. Also i have a strong memory, photographic in fact so studying is not difficult at all for me, in fact can be to easy at times. One of the reasons i wanted to learn the Thoth is because of its complexity, something that might give me a challenge, something to sink my teeth into. Something to get my brain thinking out of the box, wider, broader.

As i understand from the posts it does sound like a difficult subject though, more so than i originally anticipated. I think the general view anyway is to just go for it and approach it from my own angle.

Thanks again xxMags

MagsStardustBlack

Oh and the general view seems to be to go for the larger deck and the Swiss one, so i think i will do that.

gregory

MagsStardustBlack said:
Oh and the general view seems to be to go for the larger deck and the Swiss one, so i think i will do that.

Larger - ABSOLUTELY !!!! If you can find an OLD Swiss - better still !

MagsStardustBlack

I'l check ebay

chriske

Lillie said:
Hi.

Yeah, I'm sorry my post came across as so much an argument with yours.
It wasn't meant to be, it was just meant to be an alternative view.

Either or, not instead, if you see what I mean.

That's fine - that was how I read it.

Lillie said:
The bit where you said I was putting words in your mouth, no, I wasn't. (or at least I wasn't trying to)
What I said about 'I will learn Thoth when I have studied enough' isn't what you have said, it's what I have heard said by a number of people on this forum over the years.
People who think they would like to learn the Thoth but feel they can't because they don't know enough yet.
And that does make me sad because I feel they should just pick it up and give it a go anyway.

I never intended to imply that you had said that you needed to study before using the Thoth or anything like that.
It was not what you said and I apologise if my phrasing made it seemed like I was saying that...

Apology accepted.

Lillie said:
I totally agree with you that as someone uses the Thoth they often find they want to learn all sorts of other things too, to make more sense of it.
I agree.

It's an inconvenient truth - the Thoth just isn't "plug and play" as much as I (and I suspect you too) would like it to be that way.

Lillie said:
But I also know that right at the beginning if I had been told that I would need to learn astrology and quaballah and all that I might well have got a deck that I felt was more immediately accessible instead, and then look at what I would have missed out on!

Please consider the following scenario:
1. Person wants to buy a Tarot deck - he/she has 20 pounds to spend.
2. The Thoth deck has the most appealing artwork and the buyer thinks that Crowley has a high "cool" count.
3. The buyer buys Thoth and attempts to make sense of it. Whilst the LWB is helpful, the buyer finds it's not enough.
4. The buyer buys a copy of the Book of Thoth. Another 10 pounds. The Book of Thoth is fascinating but the buyer is even more confused.
5. The buyer learns that there is an excellent book by DuQuette and buys a copy - 10 pounds. The book is fabulous and really helps but the connections with astrology and the Tree of Life are not 100% perfectly explained.
6. DuQuette recommends an obscure astrology book - a copy is found on EBay - 10 more pounds.
7. Buyer finds that Snuffin's Thoth Companion book is highly recommended for the parts that DuQuette cannot reach. Ditto Dion Fortune's awesome "The Mystical Qaballah" - 10 pounds each.

The question is this:
Do you want the buyer to have this information before he/she starts or not?

No doubt it is easier to say that the buyer does not need all these books. It is easier to say that you just need the cards and the LWB and the total outlay will be 20 pounds - end of story. Indeed if the buyer had all this information, he/she may well be discouraged. However, if we suspect this to be true (from our own experiences) then shouldn't we give some kind of warning?

Lillie said:
It turned out that I wanted to learn a lot of that stuff after I'd got into using the Thoth, but I'm damn glad that I didn't feel the weight of all Crowleys erudition and learning when I was first choosing the deck!

I bet you are.

Lillie said:
And as the OP in this thread is just beginning with the Thoth, and wondering is she should buy it and start at all, and considering there are a lot of beginners who look at these threads I like to give an alternative view point about the studying business, as I reckon that can put people right off.

Yes. We share our experiences and tell the truth, good or ill. Otherwise what is the point of contributing to the Forum?

Lillie said:
So.
If my post came across as wrong, or too critical of what you said, I do apologise, I can only say that I chose my words badly.
I hope I have clarified what I was trying to say.
I hope I have not made it even more obscure!

But if you felt I was having a go at you, I wasn't intending to, so please, forgive me.

We agree on far more than we disagree. Thank you for your gracious reply.

Aleister Crowley's Thoth - should i or shouldn't i ? Any advice would be welcome!

Scion

Cerulean

chriske

Lillie

gregory

MagsStardustBlack

MagsStardustBlack

gregory

MagsStardustBlack

chriske