Negative Lovers

caridwen

Why is the Thoth Lovers so negative?

My book says:

Openness to inspiration, intuition, intelligence, second sight, childishness, frivolity, thoughtfulness divorced from practical consideration, indecision, self contradiction, union in a shallow degree with others, instability, contradiction, triviality.
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Without wishing to sound like an old hippy, where's the love man? :confused:

And why is this card so entwined with second sight and extrasensory perception?

There's a poem at the top which talks off listening to Silence, I'm guessing it refers to intuition...

I don't understand how come the Six of Cups is so marvelous, the best in the pack and this Six is so awful and childish. Is it because Crowely found it so hard to connect to his feelings?
 

AbstractConcept

I wish I had The Book of Thoth on me at the moment, because I don't remember anything negative about A.C's description of The Lovers. Its an alchemical marraige with all the ceremonial trappings, as opposed to the wild, untamed union of Lust, and is to be taken in conjunction with Art (notice the direction of the Arrow Eros is shooting? Sagitarius is the arrow, art).
 

Lillie

As I have the BoT sitting right next to me I looked it up.

The Lovers. he gives The Brothers as an alternative name. (Crowley says it is the correct name)

it's a long section.
he does not mention love in particular.

Load of stuff about adam, eve, serpents and Cain and Able (brothers)
A passage discribing a card (not The card!!!) that (he points out) contradicts itself with each sentence

The card shows the alchemical wedding of Christian Rosenkrantz. Loads of stuff about male and female symbols and their mingling. Reference obviously to sex, and to deeper alchemical meanings, acid alkali, sun moon, all the many dualities that make up the world

'The key is that this card represents the creation of the world'.
Sex as creation, anything as creation.
Anaylisis and synthesis. Understanding and combining.
male + female = a third, created thing.
1+2=3

So, it's not really negative, it's just not about love.
Except that love is a combination of two things (people) coming together to make a third thing (themselves together)
So, in this the ideaa of love would just be one aspect of this card, and not the most important one.

I expect I paraphrase the BoT horribly, But there we go.
I never said I was perfect.
 

Aeon418

caridwen said:
Without wishing to sound like an old hippy, where's the love man?
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The flippant answer might be that love is the domain of the Empress. She would probably be a little jealous if another one of the Major's was stealing her thunder. :laugh:

The Lovers is a card of duality and polarity. The attraction of opposites. All the things that make love possible. If there were no division, no duality, no separation, there would be no need for love because nothing would need to be joined to it's opposite. The very force of attraction would cease to exist. The great unity called Love implies division and separation.

This card is attributed to the airy sign of Gemini, the twins and the Hebrew letter Zain - a Sword. The sword is a double edged weapon that creates division and separation. The very conditions that are required for Love.

Liber AL chp.1
29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union.
30. This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all.

The union of Fire and Water creates Air, the element of division and duality. This duality, division, and separation that is required for Love also creates decisions, choices, and instability. How very contradictory and Air-like. :laugh:

There is also the important alchemical meaning of this card. It represents the Solve phase of Solve et Coagula. The divine union is consummated in card XIV Art, which needs to be studied side by side with the Lovers.
caridwen said:
And why is this card so entwined with second sight and extrasensory perception?
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This card lays on the 17th path between Binah and Tiphareth. The spiritual Understanding of Binah is beyond the Abyss and therefore beyond reason and the logical mind. It's voice, when it can be heard, is the voice that speaks in silence via wordless intuitions, direct apprehension, divine inspiration, and second sight. But your mind must be very quiet to hear the silent whispers of your Higher Self, your true Lover.
caridwen said:
I don't understand how come the Six of Cups is so marvelous, the best in the pack and this Six is so awful and childish. Is it because Crowely found it so hard to connect to his feelings?
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The 6 of Cups is a much lower analogue of the Lovers and therefore more specific. That's why it has strong connections to sex. It is a more earthly idea than that implied in the Lovers.

I'm not sure what Crowley's feelings have to do with anything. The Lovers is a card of decisions in many Tarot decks. Does that mean that the creators of those decks had trouble connecting to their feelings also? I don't think so.
 

caridwen

I wish I had The Book of Thoth on me at the moment, because I don't remember anything negative about A.C's description of The Lovers.
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My apologies I should have cited my quote. It's from an instruction booklet by Hermit that came with my Thoth. It says: "This booklet is an excerpt from Aleister Crowley's original Book of Thoth..." So I assumed it was Crowley himself who wrote this.

'The key is that this card represents the creation of the world'.
Sex as creation, anything as creation.
Anaylisis and synthesis. Understanding and combining.
male + female = a third, created thing.
1+2=3
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Now this is getting confusing. I would normally associate either 1 (Magician) + 2 (High Priestess) = 3 (Empress) or;

Temperance (Alchemy) - Fire + Water = Air or Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis

I should have read on, so Art and Lovers should be read side by side:

There is also the important alchemical meaning of this card. It represents the Solve phase of Solve et Coagula. The divine union is consummated in card XIV Art, which needs to be studied side by side with the Lovers.
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Higher Self, your true Lover.
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I'm confused again! So your true Lover is actually Yourself? It is a division of self?

Are we going back to Plato's Sympossium here?

I'm not sure what Crowley's feelings have to do with anything. The Lovers is a card of decisions in many Tarot decks. Does that mean that the creators of those decks had trouble connecting to their feelings also? I don't think so.
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Actually the last bit about Crowely's feelings were me attempting humour, please ignore:)

I don't agree that the Lovers card is a card of 'decisions in many Tarot decks'. I believe it is a card of Love in many Tarot decks. Each moment we exist we make choices and decisions, each decision we make we sacrifice something else in order to do it. But maybe that's for a another thread.
 

Aeon418

caridwen said:
I'm confused again!
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You should be! The Lovers is often a card of amazing contradictions. Where is the Love in the card called the Lovers? :laugh: See Crowley's opening remarks on page 80 of the Book of Thoth.
caridwen said:
So your true Lover is actually Yourself? It is a division of self?
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It's the Self that is not yourself and beyond anything you call or recognise as yourself. Yet more contradictions.
Most people have the feeling that they are incomplete in some way. But instead of looking inwards to find the answers, like nearly all spiritual traditions advise, we turn outwards in the desperate hope that we can find self fulfilment in another person. In the process we place unrealistic expectations on others and end up feeling hurt when they can't live up to them. But who's fault is that?
caridwen said:
I don't agree that the Lovers card is a card of 'decisions in many Tarot decks'. I believe it is a card of Love in many Tarot decks. Each moment we exist we make choices and decisions, each decision we make we sacrifice something else in order to do it. But maybe that's for a another thread.
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If there was a "chicken and egg joke" in the Tarot, the Lovers would be it. Love requires division and division creates love, but which came first?

OMG!!!! There's an EGG at the bottom of the card!!! :laugh:
 

caridwen

Aeon418 said:
OMG!!!! There's an EGG at the bottom of the card!!! :laugh:
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Problem solved:D I have no time but will come back to this, thanks for the reply and could you point me in the direction of p80 on the web as I (shamefully) don't have the book...
 

Lillie

1+2=3

sorry, it was just an example (the most simple possible) of two things being added together to make a third.

There was no deeper significance intended.
 

ravenest

It's right here!

caridwen said:
Why is the Thoth Lovers so negative?
My book says:
Without wishing to sound like an old hippy, where's the love man? :confused:
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Ummm... its in the cups , number 2. That is about as close to love as we get, without adding horrible things like pre-nup contracts, ceremonies, ministers, a church, horrible debts, annoying relatives and promises that are probably not going to be fulfilled.

That's the problem, we have the lovers (two people who are in the 2 of cups energy) and what do they do? They go and get married and mix the love up with all sorts of other stuff. The Lovers isn't about love ... it's about how people deal with love and how the energy of love can be used.
caridwen said:
I don't understand how come the Six of Cups is so marvelous, the best in the pack and this Six is so awful and childish. Is it because Crowely found it so hard to connect to his feelings?
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I disagree, the 2 is much better than the 6! I always try to go for the pure emotion. I don't see where Crowley found it so hard to connect with his feelings. But I am sure he realised the futility of many marriages, the baggage the lovers bring with them and the uses of the energy.
 
Openning of the Key Spread Science (Six of Swords)