New Age Thoth Clones: Split off from Crowley Biographies

Lillie

Oh yes :D

Pink sparklies.

It will also be wearing a necklace in the shape of the unicursal hexagram. Then all the thelema witches will want one and it will be like a pentagram, but better, because it has more points.
 

sapienza

Lillie said:
It will also be wearing a necklace in the shape of the unicursal hexagram. Then all the thelema witches will want one and it will be like a pentagram, but better, because it has more points.
:laugh:
 

Grigori

I wonder is there anyone brave enough to stand up and say they like and use a clone? Liber T'ers need not apply LOL Or someone for whom a clone was a gateway deck?

I quite like the Vision Quest, though never use. I would use it for someone squeamish about the Thoth, if I really wanted to use the Thoth with them I guess.

Anyone?
 

Le Fanu

Perhaps the Thoth is the only deck where you can't get into the clones first. None of them make sense without the Thoth (unlike the RWS where it seems we are positively encouraged to know nothing about the deck's true symbolism and not read the book. I love the Thoth forum, I feel one can say anything :D Exactly what one feels).

I cannot imagine learning anything Thoth-cloned first. You have to start with the Thoth if you want to go at it from the best angle, if you truly want to learn the system. The Thoth is the best crystallisation of Thothness you will ever find.

The others are like decorative flourishes at the Thoth's outer edges.

Does "gateway" mean you started with it? Does not understanding Clark's Magickal in the mid-80s count?

I quite like the Initiatory Tarot of the Golden Dawn. Love all the muscles. :D Does that count? But I've never used it long term, so to speak.
 

Grigori

Le Fanu said:
PerDoes "gateway" mean you started with it? Does not understanding Clark's Magickal in the mid-80s count?

I quite like the Initiatory Tarot of the Golden Dawn. Love all the muscles. :D Does that count? But I've never used it long term, so to speak.

Yeah, I'd say that counts. Gateway deck is a little experiment with something light, that opened you up to something more hardcore. I guess I wouldn't count tha Magickal as "light", but close enough. Ironically for me the RWS was the gateway deck that directed me towards the Thoth. Frightfully ironic really :laugh:
 

Le Fanu

Oh I thought *gateway* was the deck which led you into something, got you interested!

And - er - no the Magickal isn't light, but the Initiatory Tarot of the Golden Porn has loads of action to wile away an afternoon with. I secretly like it...
 

teomat

It's not a clone at all (well not in the way I think the term is being used here), but I guess Barrett's Ancient Egyptian tarot was my gateway deck to the Thoth.

The little nods here and there in the deck (the camel on the high priestess card, the feathers of Maat on Justice etc) forced me to read the Book of Thoth for info, and then eventually look again at the Thoth.

I still like the AET, though the Thoth itself is really maddening to me. I'm fascinated with the ideas and theories behind the deck, but not really keen on the deck imagery itself.
 

sapienza

Le Fanu said:
Initiatory Tarot of the Golden Porn
:laugh: This cracks me up!

The Thoth was my 2nd deck and yet I never 'got' it back then. What eventually lead me to it wasn't a clone deck but rather finally discovering the Golden Dawn system and titles and realising that the Thoth was the clearest and most aesthetically pleasing deck available to work with that system. Obviously Crowley adds an extra dimension, but I still can't find a better deck than the Thoth in order to explore the GD system.
 

rachelcat

My gateway deck was the Tarot of the Sephiroth. I was just about done with tarot (about 15 years ago!) when the T of the Sephiroth led me to discover there's more to it than Waite saying "I'd tell you what it means but then I'd have to kill you" and other authors trying to figure it out on their own.

sapienza said:
What eventually lead me to it wasn't a clone deck but rather finally discovering the Golden Dawn system and titles and realising that the Thoth was the clearest and most aesthetically pleasing deck available to work with that system. Obviously Crowley adds an extra dimension, but I still can't find a better deck than the Thoth in order to explore the GD system.
I agree completely. The Thoth is a beautiful GD deck. That's the appeal for me. The Ciceros' deck isn't bad, but I wouldn't call it beautiful.

Other "clones" that I like, though I know they're not GD savvy, they just copy Thoth keywords or ideas, are Cosmic Tribe (I LIKE nudity!) and Jolanda. Quirky and fun Thoth clones!

Sephiroth is kind of quirky and fun, too, but it does have GD content . . .
 

Scion

(Now, I love my Liber T, but only because the art is so sinuous and because it makes one part of the Thoth minors explicit...)

BUT!

Actually, I don't think the RWS-clone plague can hit the Thoth for one simple reason: the Thoth is inherently explicit in ways that the Waite-Smith is veiled. It's the difference between shouting and singing vs. hinting-hinting-hinting. No creator would ever be able to gag the Thoth enough to hijack it properly. To do so they'd have to throw out the very things they were "cloning" for marketshare. It's one thing for Arrien or Ziegler to publish muddled half-assery for gullible newbies and call it a book, and quite another to mush together a deck of their own. Even they knew not to attempt something that stupid.

The reason most people think of the Waite-Smith as a friendly "beginner" deck is because they look at the charming Arts-n-crafts surface and never pierce the caul. It's the reason that SO many lazy, credulous deck creators just regurgitate Pixie's images: they have no f%^king idea why the scenes are what they are, let alone the sources of those images. On the other hand the Thoth is righteously, defiantly, deliciously vulgar and over the top in its candor. It was designed to be. }) No matter how many New Age twits try to clean it up or dumb it down the very thing that makes it powerful/seductive/useful is its shameless vulgarity and eclecticism. To reinvent the Thoth you'd have to actually invent something new... because it isn't secretive enough to lay back and think of England while it was violated by some fluffy halfwit or sneering fraud.

Crowley and Harris knew exactly what they were doing and they won't be silenced or veiled. There is no primer white enough, no muslin thick enough, no hole dark enough to make that content go away. Suzanne Wagner and Angeles Arrien can wave scarves and glitter around it all the want, but they aren't even brushing the dandruff off the Thoth's shoulders. :rolleyes: For any necromantic poseurs, the other extreme is equally unlikely... Crowley's fortune and education and experience made the idea of some bad-ass nihilistic occultist superceding his efforts virtually impossible... dragging the Thoth in the other way and glopping a bunch of hodgepodgy occult ideas that don't fit (Luciferian Thoth! Vampire Thoth! Asatruar Thoth!) is equally crippled and doomed at the outset. :thumbsup:

The Thoth is a model of complexity because it is so explicit about its Mysteries... The real Secrets cannot be communicated. :D Tough shit says me to all the fluffy sparklies and left-hand-path gobshites who would eviscerate it for a buck or a bang.

One day there may be a deck that is better or different but the Thoth is monolithic in a way that even the Waite-Smith is not becuase it wears its head and heart and spit and sex on its sleeve. Anyone with the talent to actually accomplish a clone would just go and whip out the masterpiece that will bury all the Golden Dawn decks. So... I think the clone thing is unlikely to ever reach a fraction of Waite-Smith levels.

Let them try; the world needs comedy and wreckage. I think we're more likely to get rhapsiodies and fantasias on the Thoth... like the Cosmic Tribe and Haindl and my goofy Liber T. Those are works of affection and respect. For my money, that kind of creation is always a kind of meditation and riff on a larger/substantive work by people who want to play with an idea or look at that work through a specific lens. Mazel tov! I love fresh perspectives and enthusiasm that arises from respect.

(BTW, I do love when I come back and find lovely threads like this percolating in the Thoth forum.)