New Insight into The Emperor and Temperance and Duality

AngelFire

I have had an insight into the meanings of cards The Emperor and Temperance

Incorrect Interpretation of The Emperor and Temperance...
I suggest that the general meaning of 2 of these cards in the Tarot are in some ways incorrect. These 2 cards represent the sun signs of Aries and Sagittarius and I suggest the true expression for Aries is "I see" and for Sagittarius is "I create" and not "I am" and "I see" respectively. In other words Aries is the Clairvoyant of the Zodiac not Sagittarius!

Other Wrong Expressions...
Other expressions to other signs are also not precise and therefore wrong. For instance the expression for Taurus is given generally as "I have" when in fact it is "I touch". This difference may seem slight but I believe the difference significant. The act of touch takes possession and therefore results in "having". But it is the Midas touch that is the cause.

Duality in nature and expression through Astrology and Tarot....
I believe there is a duality in nature and in our minds. This knowledge has been withheld from us.

This duality is found in the energy coming from the sun as the Wave/Particle Theory. It is also found at the micro level in the atom whereby the neutron particle is dual in nature in that it pulses between being a positive and negative charge. Thus the neutron is only net neutral and thus dual.

This duality of nature also extends to us as being and is reflected in our minds in terms of how we think! This is why the planet Mercury is both masculine and feminine in its nature.
We "think" in two ways. We Synthesize and we Analyze.

It should be explained that Synthesis is about Vision and Imagination. These are the male and female attributes of Synthesis. They are NOT analytical.

Yin and Yang (Duality)....
Synthesis is what the Chinese called Yin defined in old Chinese as "The Heavens". Yin is feminine but here is the rub, even in its femininity it has a positive and negative charge. Likewise Yang is The World or masculine and has that same dual charge.

Earth Signs are Yang...Fire Signs are Yin!
In terms of the application of Sun signs to Yin/Yang the associations of Yin to earth signs and Fire signs are incorrect as well.

Contrary to what is on the internet and generally taught... Fire signs in there most basic disposition are Yin not Yang! Earth signs are Yang not Yin..

Fire signs are the masculine of the Yin expression while Earth are the feminine of Yang expression. In other words within The Heavens, the Yin has both a male and female quality Fire/Water and in The World, the Yang has the same dual expression of male and female in Air/Earth.

What supports this claim? Simply this... Fire signs generally "see" they do NOT analyze!
And Earth signs such as Virgo have the gift of Analysis which is a male quality. Further these explanations fit.

Summary...
I realize that what I am saying goes against the mainstream teaching about the signs but I believe that information has been hidden. Tzadi as Aleister Crowley stated...is not The Star!
But I have gone further stating that Fire signs are Yin and Earth are Yang.
 

AJ

welcome to AT. We always enjoy new insight from new members

That said we don't particularly like being told the rest of us make incorrect interpretations and wrong expressions, tarot and astrology are very personal journeys.
 

AngelFire

Hidden Insight... no offense intended

It would seem, when the meaning of some of the symbolism is hidden, that reading the Tarot may be a little more difficult.

If you read the Book of Thoth you will know that Crowley spoke of hidden meanings. I believe these meanings were suppressed and left for Initiate to discover.

There is a hidden meaning to the card Lust which represents Leo not Libra. Leo's lust is caused by its lack of reason. Leo's are very charming and passionate but not very reasonable (if they are primitive of course) That is LUST. Libra are reasonable but generally not passionate. Their LUST is for the material.

The card The Balance which is Libra was placed in Leo's spot because Leo's, by their lack of reason, are not balanced. Leo's Synthesize and do not Analyze (reason). Libra's gift is "Balance through Reasoning"... which is blind to the Arian sight.

I do not mean to offend anyone just to say that the cards have meanings that go deeper. Aries is the Clairvoyant. Sagittarius is the Alchemist.

regards
 

ravenest

It would seem, when the meaning of some of the symbolism is hidden, that reading the Tarot may be a little more difficult.

If you read the Book of Thoth you will know that Crowley spoke of hidden meanings. I believe these meanings were suppressed and left for Initiate to discover.


Are you claiming to be an initiate then ?


I can assure you, it does not work like that, meanings are not 'suppressed' for the initiate or the non-initiate to discover. They reside in layers of symbolism, the 'deeper' the mystery' the more they reside in symbolism that becomes more interrelated and interwoven within the 'big picture'. The tricky bit is then relevant separation (of the 'planes' ) . To penetrate these layers a certain type of training, observation and synthesis is required .

It is the person themselves (or their lack of these qualities) that creates any perceived 'suppression' of mysteries / meanings .

There is a hidden meaning to the card Lust which represents Leo not Libra. Leo's lust is caused by its lack of reason. Leo's are very charming and passionate but not very reasonable (if they are primitive of course) That is LUST. Libra are reasonable but generally not passionate. Their LUST is for the material.

The modern propensity to see a single astrological sign as a singular entity that encapsulates a human personality is very limited and astrologically faulty, this is compounded when that is projected onto a card's astrological associations. You won't find much meaning in a card - old, new 'insightful' or anything, by doing that.

Actually, it will lead you into error.


The card The Balance which is Libra was placed in Leo's spot because Leo's, by their lack of reason, are not balanced. Leo's Synthesize and do not Analyze (reason). Libra's gift is "Balance through Reasoning"... which is blind to the Arian sight.

Same as above. except now its fluctuating from Leos to Leo's - which is a tad confusing, but you did write ' their lack of' indicating a person ? Yet 'Libra's gift could indicate the sign. ?

I do not mean to offend anyone just to say that the cards have meanings that go deeper. Aries is the Clairvoyant. Sagittarius is the Alchemist.

regards

No offense either, I think many realise the cards go deeper, its just that they go a lot deeper, and the system is a lot deeper than the one you are trying to outline here.

A card's energy, is a compendium of various energies, one ingredient is its astrological ASSOCIATION ... this in no way makes the card like a person that has a specific Sun placement in a particular sign .... that is actually a very limiting view of both astrology, natally, and tarot .... especially Thoth.
 

Michael Sternbach

Hi AngelFire,

I don't mind out-of-the-box thinking, but your peculiar reinterpretations are at odds with several esoteric and scientific basics, that are well founded and easily demonstrable. Let me elaborate on this.

I have had an insight into the meanings of cards The Emperor and Temperance

Incorrect Interpretation of The Emperor and Temperance...
I suggest that the general meaning of 2 of these cards in the Tarot are in some ways incorrect. These 2 cards represent the sun signs of Aries and Sagittarius and I suggest the true expression for Aries is "I see" and for Sagittarius is "I create" and not "I am" and "I see" respectively. In other words Aries is the Clairvoyant of the Zodiac not Sagittarius!

Are you sure that you are in the right section? "Temperance" is called "Art" in the Thoth. :)

Anyway, the equation Major Arcana = Sun signs in psychological Astrology is a tricky one, for reasons that Ravenest has already explained.

But neither in those terms nor in any others that I am aware of is Aries to be considered a clairvoyant, or psychic seer.

Further, I would say that seeing is passive, while Aries' strength lies in taking action. "I am" is self-assertive and describes the characteristic Aries mindset better. Or how about "I act"? Arguably, "I am" would suit Leo really well.

Other Wrong Expressions...
Other expressions to other signs are also not precise and therefore wrong. For instance the expression for Taurus is given generally as "I have" when in fact it is "I touch". This difference may seem slight but I believe the difference significant. The act of touch takes possession and therefore results in "having". But it is the Midas touch that is the cause.

We could say that seeing something triggers the wish to take possession of it, so we may lay our hands on it next.

Duality in nature and expression through Astrology and Tarot....
I believe there is a duality in nature and in our minds. This knowledge has been withheld from us.

Dualities in nature and our mind are a major topic of esoteric teachings. Not sure what you mean by "withheld knowledge."

This duality is found in the energy coming from the sun as the Wave/Particle Theory.

Actually, all electromagnetic energy has this kind of double nature according to quantum mechanics. It has nothing to do with the Sun specifically.

It is also found at the micro level in the atom whereby the neutron particle is dual in nature in that it pulses between being a positive and negative charge. Thus the neutron is only net neutral and thus dual.

No, the Neutron pulses between neutral and positive charge (which means it becomes a proton momentarily) as long as it is part of a nucleus.

This duality of nature also extends to us as being and is reflected in our minds in terms of how we think! This is why the planet Mercury is both masculine and feminine in its nature.
We "think" in two ways. We Synthesize and we Analyze.

Analysis and synthesis is a duality that in astrological terms corresponds primarily with the Mercury/Jupiter axis.

It could however be said that in alchemical terms, Mercury (as one of the three principles) straddles both analysis and synthesis.

It should be explained that Synthesis is about Vision and Imagination. These are the male and female attributes of Synthesis. They are NOT analytical.

If anything, I would say Imagination is the more active of the two.

Yin and Yang (Duality)....
Synthesis is what the Chinese called Yin defined in old Chinese as "The Heavens". Yin is feminine but here is the rub, even in its femininity it has a positive and negative charge. Likewise Yang is The World or masculine and has that same dual charge.

Opposite to what you state, in the ancient Chinese system, Heaven is attributed with Yang, Earth with Yin. Thus, among the bagua or trigrams of the Yijing, the former consists of three Yang lines, the latter of three Yin lines.

Earth Signs are Yang...Fire Signs are Yin!
In terms of the application of Sun signs to Yin/Yang the associations of Yin to earth signs and Fire signs are incorrect as well.

Contrary to what is on the internet and generally taught... Fire signs in there most basic disposition are Yin not Yang! Earth signs are Yang not Yin..

Fire signs are the masculine of the Yin expression while Earth are the feminine of Yang expression. In other words within The Heavens, the Yin has both a male and female quality Fire/Water and in The World, the Yang has the same dual expression of male and female in Air/Earth.

It is true that Fire and Water have sometimes been described by the ancients as heavenly elements, Air and Earth as earthly ones. I would have to check on references; running from memory, Hyppolite mentions this in his summary of the Aristotelian lore.

However, there are many schemes and perspectives. There are other reasons why Fire and Air are considered male, Water and Earth female already in the Aristotelian scheme.

What supports this claim? Simply this... Fire signs generally "see" they do NOT analyze!
And Earth signs such as Virgo have the gift of Analysis which is a male quality. Further these explanations fit.

Male and female here don't refer to the analysis/synthesis duality but to the duality between activity and passivity in general.

Summary...
I realize that what I am saying goes against the mainstream teaching about the signs but I believe that information has been hidden. Tzadi as Aleister Crowley stated...is not The Star!
But I have gone further stating that Fire signs are Yin and Earth are Yang.

I mean no offence, but while some of your basic thoughts are valid enough, you should consider that they represent particular perspectives that you chose to take. In no way are they fit to refute or replace established esoteric teachings. Nevertheless, you may be able to convey certain insights if you would formulate your thoughts more carefully and in proper context.
 

AngelFire

Vision versus Imagination and other disagreements! :) and Suppression of Synthesis

First I would suggest that the esoteric and scientific basics are in my opinion (and Crowley's if you have read Moonchild) overrated.

Yes, I did say Temperance instead of Art. And Art is a good description for Sagittarius since this sun sign has the gift of transformation (synthesis) of the duality of the Geminii perspective.

As for what I claim is the dual nature of Yin being expressed in astrology as vision and imagination... I would say that vision is not passive at all.

Aries is NOT "I am"... it is "I see"
When you state the mainstream idea that Aries is expressed as "I am" I must reply that I believe this is completely wrong! Aries is "I see". I believe Astrology to be a guide to understanding oneself but I believe mainstream Astrology has some things wrong. And from my study this is one of them. All fire signs for that matter are "seers" to some degree!

Aries (generally) do not Analyze...
The Aries expression of action comes from the exaltation of the Sun in Aries. Aries are at their best when in action. Aries urge to action comes from the will to act upon what is "seen"! This explains why Aries are impulsive in their actions. They do not analyze what they see they act upon it! This is why they are The Ram. They will repeat making mistakes until they analyze why things are not working.

Vision...
The definition of "vision" in dictionaries, I suggest like most words, has been debased. Vision is defined in one meaning as "something that you imagine : a picture that you see in your mind". What I claim... is "vision" is the active positive form of Yin while imagination is the receptive passive negative form. Sight is external. Imagination is reflective and internal. People who are Fire signs tend to be dynamic and positive. People who are Waters signs tend to be the dreamers and passive. In fact Pisces has the gift of Imagination.

Aries....
The depiction of The Emperor in the Book of Thoth has the Sun in the eye of the emperor. That Crowley stated that Tzadi is not The Star is, in my opinion, more than a "hint" to the true expression of Aries being the Clairvoyant of the Zodiac. Take into consideration that the opposite sign of Aries is Libra, which is best expressed as having "Mental" Balance. Libra's balance by reasoning. They put the facts together to form a mosaic but they tend not to have a true picture of things. It is well stated that "Justice is blind!" And in some Tarot decks the sign of Balance depicts Justice as being blindfolded! This should be a clear clue that the opposite sing of Libra would be the sign that "sees"! Further Aries sight takes them to the extreme which is essentially out of balance!

Synthesis is NOT taught!...
When I state that the duality of our minds has been suppressed, I state this on the basis that in our education systems and in our basic vocabulary, virtually no one speaks about Synthesis! Our school systems do not call the artists students the ones who Synthesize better than they Analyze! There is no mention of synthesis in mainstream society at all!

The Sun...
As for the Sun. I am not sure how you can state this duality "has nothing to do with the Sun specifically." This duality has everything to do with the Sun! The rays coming from the Sun come in the form of a waves and particles! It is thus directly attributed to the Wave/Particle Duality Theory.

Mercury is dual...
As for "Analysis and synthesis is a duality that in astrological terms corresponds primarily with the Mercury/Jupiter axis." Again, I disagree entirely. Mercury which is the planet of The Mind is dual. We integrate and we differentiate! Our minds, as I have been stating, both Synthesize and Analyze.

Confusing things...
You are just confusing things by stating "It could however be said that in alchemical terms, Mercury (as one of the three principles) straddles both analysis and synthesis". :)

Yin mean The Heavens! Yang means The World (Ancient Chinese)....
I completely disagree with what you say about "the ancient Chinese system, Heaven is attributed with Yang"... The Yin is The Heavens... The Yang is The World. This is from the Ancient Chinese. My claim is that Earth signs are, by their practical natures, of the Yang although of the feminine passive or negative, as opposed to Air signs which are also Yang but the positive masculine.

The Conflict between Air and Earth...
The reason why Air signs do NOT generally get along with Earth signs is for the very simple reason that although they both Analyze, Air is exact while Earth is pragmatic.. leading to the conflict that Air thinks Earth is inaccurate and thus stupid while Earth thinks Air are to picky and thus pedantic!

The Conflict between Fire and Water...
Correspondingly, neither do Fire or Water signs (generally) analyze! Both tend to synthesize. Fire signs generally "see" and are direct as a result while Water sign imagine and are indirect. Conflict arises between the two types because Fire's directness is taken by Water signs to be insensitive. While Water's indirectness is viewed by Fire signs as being deceitful (illusionary)!

Please check what you stated and confirm... :)
"It is true that Fire and Water have sometimes been described by the ancients as heavenly elements, Air and Earth as earthly ones. I would have to check on references; running from memory, Hyppolite mentions this in his summary of the Aristotelian lore."

Fire and Air are Positive and Masculine...
I would state that Fire and Air are male in that although Yin and Yang respectively they are both the positive (or active) of this expression.

Water and Earth are Passive and Feminine...
I would state that Water and Earth although Yin and Yang are both negative (or passive) of this expression.

Yin (feminine) The Heavens... Yang (masculine) The World...
I disagree with you saying that "Male and female here don't refer to the analysis/synthesis duality but to the duality between activity and passivity in general."

The Heavens (Yin) is feminine and is represented by Synthesis. The World (Yang) is the masculine and is represented by Analysis!

Synthesis is NOT Taught....
It is the denial of the feminine in this "world" which is what is causing mankind to suffer! There is an almost complete disregard of Synthesis in this world. There is no Justice (yin) and in most cases little or no Law (yang) either. It is not discussed and it is not taught!
 

AngelFire

Supppression by Mainstream Dogma!

I claim only that what I am saying I have learned from many years study.

I would disagree with you about what has and hasn't been suppressed!
Why would Crowley state that "Tzadi is not the Star" and why would he put the cards for Libra and Leo out of synchronization? Why would he not just explain everything? I believe the reason he didn't is because Astrology like most sciences are suppressed by mainstream dogma!

You cannot assure me "it does not work like that, meanings are not 'suppressed'"!.

Crowley did not have much respect for The Golden Dawn or the Waite deck!

Happy New year!
 

Zephyros

Moderator Note:

Please adhere to the Thoth Forum Guidelines that state:

Being a controversial man, Crowley frequently attracts debate and criticism. This section of AT is intended to be a place for interested people to further study his work or explore using the many approaches to working with the Thoth deck. Debating the merits of his deck or magick does not belong in this forum, as it tends to derail efforts to actually study the material. Which after all is what this forum exists for. Debating the validity of a magical approach to tarot or similar discussions, are better suited to the general sections of AT, such as the Talking Tarot section

In other words, it is what it is, and he is who he is. Let's keep debate to the material itself, please. Suppression by mainstream dogma, such as it is, is best discussed elsewhere.

Thanks

Zephyros
Thoth Forum Moderator
 

ravenest

You cannot assure me "it does not work like that, meanings are not 'suppressed'"!.

Sure I can :) . You said you believed the meanings were suppressed and left for the initiate to discover. They clearly aren't. They exist in the Book of Thoth, from the simplest level, through to the more complex. There is ALSO a level of meaning, in some of the cards, that in some cases has elements that can relate to certain OTO degrees. But nowadys, even for that, you dont have to be 'an initiate' as such. Its all on the internet, somewhere ... actually, its less 'suppressed' than it ever was.

Crowley did not have much respect for The Golden Dawn

I think if you look into things sensibly , you will find he did, he based his Tarot on theirs !

or the Waite deck!

Thats true, according to what he wrote about it ... but then again, Waite's deck was a corrupted reversion.