Hey Thoth-readers! I have a couple of questions for ya...

I've had a Thoth deck for a while, but I've never really used it, because I didn't want to learn the Thoth system of Kaballah, astrology, etc yet. I was still figuring out the Rider-Waite system that my other decks were based on. Now I'm thinking of picking it up, but my understanding of the Thoth deck is that it's hard to read intuitively. Would you agree? Do I have to study all the orthodox symbols and memorize the meanings to be able to read them, or can I just see them and just say what I see as with my RW-based cards?

Also, how helpful are the key words at the bottom of each card? I've heard a couple people complain about them, say they don't help, are distracting, or some such thing.

Thanks a million in advance!

Edit: Mods: Maybe this belongs in the Thoth forum. I never even noticed there was one until just now. I let you guys decide.

Raya said:

Also, how helpful are the key words at the bottom of each card? I've heard a couple people complain about them, say they don't help, are distracting, or some such thing.

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Well there are no keywords there, only Titles But I don't find them distracting at all, cause I cut them off Although I learned them by heart first.

I think you can read the Thoth very well intuitively. And if you spend a little time learning what the symbols mean, there is a whole new world of information you an intuit, but you don't have to do it that way. When you look at the cards now do you see a meaning? If so, go for it I reckon.

One of the reasons I did not use my Thoth when I got it was because of the unnillustrated minors. Unnillustrated minors just put me off and I find them mostly uninspiring and unintuitive. Usually, when I read with such a deck, I just use RWS meanings, so obviously I could not do that with the Thoth. Frankly, on my side, it's when I got the Liber T Tarot of Stars Eternal that I've been using the "Thoth" with better success. The majors are exactly like the Thoth majors but the minors are illustrated. I never use Kaballah on my side and I don't plan to, I doubt it's a must.

WolfyJames said:

Frankly, on my side, it's when I got the Liber T Tarot of Stars Eternal that I've been using the "Thoth" with better success. The majors are exactly like the Thoth majors but the minors are illustrated.

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Maybe I'll have to check that out. Thanks, WolfyJames.

The minors don't have to be a problem--they aren't scenic like the RWS, but they do have enough color and mood to work intuitively, if you're not wedded to the idea of having human figures on each card. There's a lot that you can get out of them if you pay attention.

The keywords (/titles) annoy some people but can be a helpful mnemonic, especially if you're just starting out with the deck. If you find them distracting you can always cut them off. Personally I don't mind keywords on decks as long as they go reasonably well with what my intuition says about the artwork, and these definitely do. That said, I'm planning on buying another copy in the near future for trimming, just to see how different it is.

I absolutely agree with similia. Personally, I think the best way to learn the Thoth is to start out intuitively and then delve into the background as you feel able. If you start out with it it's easy to get overwhelmed, but if you just start reading you'll realize that you can read the cards, and then start to get curious about what some of the symbolism means until you want to read further. At least that's how it worked for me.

Formicida said:

I absolutely agree with similia. Personally, I think the best way to learn the Thoth is to start out intuitively and then delve into the background as you feel able. If you start out with it it's easy to get overwhelmed, but if you just start reading you'll realize that you can read the cards, and then start to get curious about what some of the symbolism means until you want to read further. At least that's how it worked for me.

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I agree totally. I knew next to nothing when I first started with them, and the more I read, the more curious I became about their background. I think everyone reads them a bit differently, but I understand them better in a reading the more I learn.

Best of luck!

Hey Raya,

There's almost no way to answer because people learn things differently.

I actually find the Thoth easier to read intuitively because you aren't hemmed in by the scenic minors that essentially illustrate a single interpretation of the Golden Dawn meanings, often forfeitng the others. This is also probably one of the reasons the Thoth has a rep for being a "deeper" or more "harsh" deck. The artwork is more a painting of a specific energy than a comic book panel depicting an event. I don't think there's anything less-complicated about the Waite-Smith, and I would lay dollars to donuts that those scenes are the reason the deck has the beginner-friendly, Insta-intuition tag smacked on it.

If by easy intuitive reading you mean: "can you study nothing and read the deck perfectly?," I think either the WS or the Thoth will disappoint there. I've said it in other threads but it's worth repeating: intuition and study are bound up in each other. I think both of these decks are complicated and challenging. Both can be read straight out of the box. Both are friendly, rich decks. Both require study. Both have elaborate esoteric underpinnings. Both were designed primarily for magical use, not divination. Both have expert artwork that tries to get at the Book T meanings. For the record, the Waite-Smith deck is based on the exact same underlying system as the Crowley-Harris deck: the Golden Dawn's Book T.

They are obviously different decks, because there are (strong) differences between the way Book T was interpreted by Waite, a hermetic Christian, and Crowley, a gnostic NONChristian. So studying the WS system can be equally as challenging and Qabalah/Astrology/Mythology based, with a primary distinction being Waite's coy nonexplanations. In many ways, Crowley is more faithful to the original Golden Dawn system than Waite and his deck more transparent (i.e. allowing polyvalent meanings to be intuited). In other ways he was tearing down some old models and replacing them.

The thing is the Thoth can work right out of the box OR you can start a systematic program of study and wait to read til you've mastered some material. That depends on how best you learn. If you know something about the deck, your intuition will grow out of your study. But as Similia and Formicida point out, as you read with the Thoth, you'll start to wonder about certain details and elements... then you'll go find answers to your own questions. So the study will follow intuition.

That's a very longwinded way of saying: yes. You can absolutely read it intuitively and it will blossom richly the more you pay it attention. I think you get exactly as much out of a deck as you're willing to put into it.

Scion

I think you can read ANY cards intuitivly. If you are interested in the Hermetic science and deeper knowledge contained in the tarot via astrology, and kabbalah and, and and ...
Then Thoth is the deck for you.

Formicida said:

Personally, I think the best way to learn the Thoth is to start out intuitively and then delve into the background as you feel able. If you start out with it it's easy to get overwhelmed, but if you just start reading you'll realize that you can read the cards, and then start to get curious about what some of the symbolism means until you want to read further. At least that's how it worked for me.

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I guess that's what I'll do. Some of the symbolism, like Qaballah,numerology, or color scheme seems interesting to me. But to be honest I've never had an interest in astrology, in tarot or otherwise. How important is astrology to the Thoth tarot?

Raya said:

I guess that's what I'll do. Some of the symbolism, like Qaballah,numerology, or color scheme seems interesting to me. But to be honest I've never had an interest in astrology, in tarot or otherwise. How important is astrology to the Thoth tarot?

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I'd say you should know enough about astrology, like the signs, planets and elements, but not enough to start doing charts. In other words, any beginner books on astrology talking about such subjects should suffice. Heck, some astrology websites have really good informations about these. As for kabbalah, I don't see the point of studying it and using it on my side, since kabbalah has nothing to tarot in the first place, but it's up to you to use it or not.