Plato and Tarot

beanu

Alchemists

There seem to be two distinct sets of alchemists.
The origins are that it is claimed to be the old Moorish mysticism going way back, which was munged into the rest in Spain/Portugal 13th century by Moses de Leon and his Zohar, (and others of the time)
which prompted a new wave of alchemists around the renaissance, and led into Rosicrucians.

The claims for origins of Moorish Alchemy are Egypt (of course)
and other eastern influences including Chinese.

Although the modern Alchemists were later than Tarot,
their roots were earlier,
and I still cling desperately to the notions that both embody the same concepts, from a common source.
This common source probably also includes a lot of Plato concepts.

Actually, I recommend a look at the Wikipedia article on Alchemy, from wich I have extracted the following:-

Egyptian alchemy [5000 BCE – 400 BC], beginning of alchemy
Indian alchemy [1200 BC – Present][17], related to Indian metallurgy; Nagarjuna was an important alchemist
Greek alchemy [332 BCE – 642 AD], studied at the Library of Alexandria Stockholm papyrus
Chinese alchemy [142 AD], Wei Boyang writes The Kinship of the Three
Islamic alchemy [700 – 1400], Muslims were at the forefront of Alchemy and Chemistry in the period of the Islamic Golden Age or Islamic Renaissance.
Islamic chemistry [800 – Present], Alkindus and Avicenna refute transmutation, Rhazes refutes four classical elements, and Tusi discovers conservation of mass
European alchemy [1300 – Present], Saint Albertus Magnus builds on Arabic alchemy
European chemistry [1661 – Present], Boyle writes The Sceptical Chymist, Lavoisier writes Elements of Chemistry, and Dalton publishes his Atomic Theory

B
 

kapoore

Hi,
I agree with all of the above. Alchemy goes way back. I think even the name means something like the red dirt of Egypt. And, of course, alchemy was advanced among the Arabic scholars of Islam--unfortunately a lot of records lost when the Mongolian army destroyed the Library in Baghdad in the 13th Century. Alchemy is connected with metallurgy. But the sort of alchemy we think about in relation to the occult (and Jung) might have used these ideas but in a symbolic and metaphysical way. They called themselves by Arabic names. And I think there were actually some Arabic works there like the Emerald Tablet (or Greek translated into Arabic). I should be clear that I am the one who doesn't "get it," although I have tried. And there could be a connection to Tarot, but it's hard to establish connections. Look how hard it is to even trace the use of the Hebrew alphabet into the occult! I know that Adam McLean knows alchemy well. He also knows the Tarot and I'm sure he has some ideas about its roots. But he doesn't deal with Tarot origins. Now he is interested more in Tarot as an artistic form. Might be worth asking, though... 'Were the European alchemists neo-Platonist?' is an interesting question. There does seem to be a descent into matter and an ascent into spirit in a cyclical manner, which is, of course, standard Neo-Platonism. And the use of the four elements comes out of Calcidius commentary on Timaeus, but also goes way back to the pre-Socratics. It's really hard to establish unorthodox links on how ideas were translated from the Arabic world into the Latin. Ideas outside the well known links: like the names of stars, which are all Arabic--Altair, Altarus, etc. etc. Alchemical words like alcohol are also Arabic. I've bushwhacked my way through some of that material and have never gotten far. Sorry.
 

blue_fusion

beanu said:
Hi, Blue_fusion,

Wikipedia says that the 4 cardinal virtues are
Wisdom
Courage
Moderation (Temperance) and
Justice

Could it be that the Hermit represents Wisdom?

I'm sorry it seems I muddled up my memories of Plato's Republic. Here's a quote from Wikipedia's entry on it:

"Accordingly, Socrates defines justice as "working at that which he is naturally best suited," and "to do one's own business and not to be a busybody" (433a-433b) and goes on to say that justice sustains and perfects the other three cardinal virtues: Temperance, Wisdom, and Courage, and that justice is the cause and condition of their existence."

So I think justice is what leads that inherent "something" in people from vice ("unmoderation", cowardice, and folly), to virtue. The association from what I remember is like this: Temperance for the peasantry, Courage/Mettle/Strength for the Warrior/Soldier lass, and Wisdom for the Philosophers. This is the order of progression as well, with the three virtues associated with 2 metals - Temperance being "bronze", Strength "silver", and "wisdom" as a golden virtue.

I've always wondered why Strength comes earlier than Temperance, since it's associated with the soldier class, as opposed to Temperance's peasantry. And that apparently "wisdom" as a virtue is absent. Since there's also a theory/outlook on dividing the Majors into 3 sets based on their sequences, it would have been fitting to associate the 3 said Platonic virtues with each set, according to their corresponding "ranks."
 

beanu

blue_fusion

I treat the sequence of Tarot majors as the "descent",
with our attempts to rise again being the "ascent".
For this, you need to read the sequence backwards.

However, my theories are more complex, and end up on the tree of life on the spheres, so the concept of a single path through it all becomes meaningless.
I see
Temperance in Netzach
Justice is in Tipharet, the center that influences everything
Strength is in Geburah
Hermit (assuming he is Wisdom) in Chesed

How does that fit for you?
 

beanu

working at that which he is naturally best suited

This sounds awfully similar to Crowleys "Every man is a star"
in which he says that each person has their own orbit - their predestined path, and that our task is to find our own, and live it. When we follow our own path, we will not collide with anyone else.
He describes this als as our true or magickal Will.
as in "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law - Love is the law, love under will".

It sounds very Platonic.
 

beanu

Adam McLEan

Kapoore,

yes, Adam McLean has emphatically denied any link between Tarot and Alchemy.

I realise the limits of evidence about Tarot, but as I have commented in other forums, styles of thought, ideas, philosophies, memes, can be tracked and traced, much as art styles are tracked and traced. Hence we can talk about neo-platonism as a concept. The Tarot is difficult because it uses pictures instead of words, but so does alchemy, and similarities can be found between the images.

I know I can't prove my theories in the usual sense, but I still believe the similarities are strong enough to make it worth considering.
I also use patterns between the cards, rather than just individual cards, which helps.
 

beanu

World Soul

The concept of World Soul certainly seems to fit well with the dancing woman on the RWS World card.
The four elements relate to concepts of "same and different"
The dancing wouman would be the soul itself.

Is there any strong symbolism for the wreath in Plato or Neo-platonism?
 

kapoore

Hi Beanu,
I had the sense that Adam Mclean has given up on Tarot origin theories--I recently took his internet course on Tarot art collection and he was emphatic that his interests were artistic. Several years ago I took a tape course by a college professor on the 'history of science.' He covered the alchemists, their roots, etc. Not even professors studying alchemists are exactly sure what they meant. They did take the chemistry part seriously and were working chemists, but they gave the chemical reactions a kind of Platonic twist. There was a guy out in the California desert a few years back who was a working alchemist. I have often wondered if they weren't also cooking up psychedelics--hmm.

The Wreath on the World Card is called a mandorla. The mandorla is a geometric shape that is formed from the ratio 265/153 which approximates the square root of 3, or 1.732. When I use my calculator and square root 3, I get 1.7320. I gave the wikipedia site a few comments back, but here it is again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesica_Piscis The square root of 3 was used in constructing gothic churches. Basically the mandorla relates to sacred geometry.
 

beanu

Mandorla

Kapoore,

I know that I am easily convince - I don't need every last dot in a picture to be perfect before I recognise who it is a picture of,

but to me that Mandorla ratio is the clincher. You have convinced me that there is a "reasonably high likelihood" that the RWS World card is indeed a reference to Plato's World Spirit. Thank you.

BTW, have you had a look at my book site? You might find my similarites between Tarot and Alchemy images and Kabalah to be an interesting starting point into alchemy. See my profile.

Beanu