Really Obtuse Newbie Questions

Close, I dont know if you looked through those links, but IMO, especially between Flornoy and Houdouin it becomes pretty difficult to hold on to the idea that the merseille doesnt run deeper than is currently held by certain historians. It doesnt have to have had the whole "came from Ancient Egypt" or conform to some teachings in a magic grimoire or whatever to run much much deeper than what is currently fashionable to believe.
The evidence against a deeper meaning to the trumps comes primarily from the assertion that the "images would have been familiar to everyone" (as if a specific sequence of iconic images holds no semantic value, simply because we cant necessarily decipher it definitively) - and evidence of pre-marseille sources such as the apparently mundane nature of the Mamluk Cards and of some of the aristocratic Visconti style decks which lack some of the cards and features found in the marseille decks. This in no way negates the refinement and canonization that occurred in specific guilds in specific locations. Flornoy's research into the Compagnons for example is not pulled out of thin air. As well, the sacred/Vitruvian-type geometric grids that have been revealed by Houdouin and certain instances of masonic symbols in the "type 2" decks are pretty hard to brush off.
The correspondences with astrology which is more overt than any cabalistic conformity, is again, hard to brush off. Astrology doesnt necessarily make it occult, but the way it, and other symbols and eye movements and so on interact still resonate with what Crowley also said about crossword puzzles.
Its also possible that certain occultists would rather the marseille have no deeper meaning, claiming it to be arbitrary, than for it to have a deeper meaning and to have gotten it tragically wrong.

Kingdubrock said:

Hi,

Last,
5) What is THE best way, or resource, for getting my head around this stuff (ideally one that at least to some extent contextualizes and traces the material to pre or non GD systems. I am always more comfortable learning spiritual subject matter in a "non-sectarian" fashion in order to be able to recognize and evaluate sectarian assertions and innovations).

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The main "problems" with the GD system is that:

1. People think its the only Hermetic placement
2. because of 1. the GD is now the standard, hence you'll find it in 99% of books, websites...etc.
3. A huge part of the placement is based on numbers, fool is zero, thus we have "ten paths"or emanations, the Sefirot.. the paths then flow from path 11 to 32. So FOOL=zero
11 plus zero= fool, Magus=1 so 11 plus 1=12, so magus goes on path 12. Etc.
4. It is very possibly a blind
5. The Golden Dawn system is powerful but messy and antiquated, yet again like in one and two... it's become standard, so almost without exception, everything is GD. Due credit to the GD, they forceably creating a powerful system... however we no longer need hebrew or other antiquated 19th Century methods. The use of Hebrew is mainly due to the ignorant idea that Hebrew is the only sacred language





like pathworking is really a modern thing, yes, though Hermetic Qabbalah can be seen to be a totally different type of beast to Jewish (despite what hundreds of websites and hundreds of books ALL REPEATING THE SAME THING tell you); that being said, practically all forms of Pagan praxis, hermetic etc can be found in some form in Kabbalah. However, Hermetic Qabbalah has it's OWN roots....


....

Martinism: there are two main forms, one is ritual based, akin to ritual magick
tweaked into existence by Papus(? if memory serves me), the other is by Martin himself, which is more Buddhist like in nature or without over reliance on ritual...

Here is a link to my latest art for one NON GD Hermetic system.. by someone called WG Gray....but with the lower tree as used by RJ Stewart

http://graalbaum.com/jpegs/extendedtreechao3chtarotmini334.png

......

Kingdubrock said:

Close, I dont know if you looked through those links, but IMO, especially between Flornoy and Houdouin it becomes pretty difficult to hold on to the idea that the merseille doesnt run deeper than is currently held by certain historians. It doesnt have to have had the whole "came from Ancient Egypt" or conform to some teachings in a magic grimoire or whatever to run much much deeper than what is currently fashionable to believe.
The evidence against a deeper meaning to the trumps comes primarily from the assertion that the "images would have been familiar to everyone" (as if a specific sequence of iconic images holds no semantic value, simply because we cant necessarily decipher it definitively) - and evidence of pre-marseille sources such as the apparently mundane nature of the Mamluk Cards and of some of the aristocratic Visconti style decks which lack some of the cards and features found in the marseille decks.

Click to expand...

I did look at the links, and to a great extent, I think occultists find things because they want them to be there, however well they state their arguments. Even the GD proclaimed the discovery of the "true knowledge." There is no assertion that the Marseilles was originally a game, but rather a lack of evidence to the contrary. In the absence of a manuscript, a set of instructions, anything that would point to a positive, all one is left with is a negative. This does not negate Tarot's importance as an occult tool, but is rather proof that patterns are found everywhere.

I'm not saying it can't, or doesn't, have deeper meaning than a game. I actually do think it does. But Masonic symbols are found everywhere and would have been even more pronounced then, and without contemporary evidence, I would assert it is a happy, wonderful mistake.

Kingdubrock said:

3. Pathworking existed for kabbalists from very early on

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example please...citation please???

closrapexa said:

I did look at the links, and to a great extent, I think occultists find things because they want them to be there, however well they state their arguments. Even the GD proclaimed the discovery of the "true knowledge." There is no assertion that the Marseilles was originally a game, but rather a lack of evidence to the contrary. In the absence of a manuscript, a set of instructions, anything that would point to a positive, all one is left with is a negative. This does not negate Tarot's importance as an occult tool, but is rather proof that patterns are found everywhere.

I'm not saying it can't, or doesn't, have deeper meaning than a game. I actually do think it does. But Masonic symbols are found everywhere and would have been even more pronounced then, and without contemporary evidence, I would assert it is a happy, wonderful mistake.

Click to expand...

The Compagnons who made the marseille images - particularly the Noblet, Dodal and Payen decks, were a quasi-monastic guild of master-apprentice craftspeople whose oral/internal teachings about growth, mastery, god, colour and so on are recorded in songs. There was no freemasonry involved (nor freemasonic symbolism) until the Conver or type 2 cards were made and symbols were added by his engraver quite suddenly and deliberately (the differences being sufficient enough to distinguish between a "type 1" and "type 2" deck (and likely the reason Eteilla perceived Egyptian symbolism etc). There are historical documents, names of fathers, sons who were compagnons in the trade, changes in iconography as the cards moved from being made by compagnons to a more merchant class who had freemasonic members, with names, dates and so on.
There is a difference between super-profound and occult, if by occult one means cabala etc. Such profundity can be present without there having been an occult purpose such as divination and magic, which we do know was not imputed onto the cards until Eteilla.
The mamluk cards were a game. The trumps were added later, reflecting somewhat the triumph processions (parades) which did have huge allegorical significance, but still part of the game; were adored and adapted by the aristocracy; and again modified, adapted and canonized by compagnons into what are now referred to as "Marseille" tarot (type 1), still a game but now with the presence of compagnon iconography, color codes, names and numbers of cards being codified, significant directed eye movements, eyes put on bellies, knees, simple images in the visconti decks such as the star, moon, sun, and tower cards being transformed into something quite specific to the Compagnons etc; again modified (and some say ruined and diluted) into the "type 2" (Conver etc) with new iconography added (including masonic) and in no time, seized upon by Ateilla.

Anyway, I find this interesting, and far beyond happenstance, but your mileage may vary.

hoomer said:

example please...citation please???

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That wasnt actually me.

A very interesting new book, which doesnt necessarily serve my point (or contradict it), but does shed light, with thorough historical scholarship, on the historical, esoteric and philosophical elements and foundations which gradually filtered into the cards, culminating into the overtly esoteric thinking of Eteilla is Decker's Esoteric Tarot:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0835609081/ref=nosim/aeclectic/

hoomer said:

The main "problems" with the GD system is that:

1. People think its the only Hermetic placement
2. because of 1. the GD is now the standard, hence you'll find it in 99% of books, websites...etc.
3. A huge part of the placement is based on numbers, fool is zero, thus we have "ten paths"or emanations, the Sefirot.. the paths then flow from path 11 to 32. So FOOL=zero
11 plus zero= fool, Magus=1 so 11 plus 1=12, so magus goes on path 12. Etc.
4. It is very possibly a blind
5. The Golden Dawn system is powerful but messy and antiquated, yet again like in one and two... it's become standard, so almost without exception, everything is GD. Due credit to the GD, they forceably creating a powerful system... however we no longer need hebrew or other antiquated 19th Century methods. The use of Hebrew is mainly due to the ignorant idea that Hebrew is the only sacred language





like pathworking is really a modern thing, yes, though Hermetic Qabbalah can be seen to be a totally different type of beast to Jewish (despite what hundreds of websites and hundreds of books ALL REPEATING THE SAME THING tell you); that being said, practically all forms of Pagan praxis, hermetic etc can be found in some form in Kabbalah. However, Hermetic Qabbalah has it's OWN roots....


....

Martinism: there are two main forms, one is ritual based, akin to ritual magick
tweaked into existence by Papus(? if memory serves me), the other is by Martin himself, which is more Buddhist like in nature or without over reliance on ritual...

Here is a link to my latest art for one NON GD Hermetic system.. by someone called WG Gray....but with the lower tree as used by RJ Stewart

http://graalbaum.com/jpegs/extendedtreechao3chtarotmini334.png

......

Click to expand...

Hi there,
Thank you for the post. By your art you mean the diagram, colouring and placements or are you a deck designer?

Kingdubrock said:

There is a difference between super-profound and occult, if by occult one means cabala etc. Such profundity can be present without there having been an occult purpose such as divination and magic, which we do know was not imputed onto the cards until Eteilla.

Click to expand...

This is exactly my point. Occultist throughout history have been a rather talkative bunch, despite their reputation for reticence. Were the cards originally constructed to convey a certain spiritual code, as modern Golden Dawn decks do, some sort of documentation would have survived (probably, maybe). Like my spiral broccoli, patterns exist everywhere.

Kingdubrock said:

Anyway, I find this interesting, and far beyond happenstance, but your mileage may vary.

Click to expand...

I recommend you look at the Historical forum, I'm far from the best person to argue this point in any case.

Kingdubrock said:

Hi there,
Thank you for the post. By your art you mean the diagram, colouring and placements or are you a deck designer?

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oh no, not my deck...

I use http://www.aquatictarot.de/ as its public domain

the diagram etc in original form is 8000 by 6000 pixels... being able to use the aquatic tarot is good!