I read RWS, should I ignore Thoth meanings

Zephyros

The fish to me is the metaphysical system of Tarot itself, GD Tarot to be more specific, intertwined with Thelemic symbolism, to be sure, but so much more than just an illustrated commentary on the Book of the Law.

But the Book of Law itself attempts to reinvent those old symbols to better fit the new Aeon, hence it serves as a key for its deck. The harlot is now the saint while the virgin is the sinner and so classical study of its symbols, or the Jungian-common sense approach of some authors, would give the opposite results of an analysis simply because the values in the equation are different. When Aiwass talks about the Star, Emperor, "House of God" and other Tarot references he doesn't deny their existence and significance. He doesn't invent an alternative to Hebrew, or suggest calling the Star "fried pickles" but he does say that they are now to be looked at differently.

It's still the same symbolic language but a very different variant. German and English have their roots in the same proto-Germanic language yet one sounds nothing like the other because they have split. Even if they have the same building blocks they're still different languages.

A good example (going back to the thread topic ;)) might be the differences between Waite's Hanged Man and Crowley's. They're both the Dying God, to be sure, and they're both about immersion in the womb, "bosom of the Beloved," etc. But the Beloved is a different one, and so is the bosom. ;) One could try to analyze Crowley's Hanged Man according to the PKT, Jung or anything else but those sources would only take you so far, because although it walks like a Dying God and quacks like one, it's an example of one instance where it's something completely different.

The Liber 418 study group on the Vision and the Voice was running here for a while. I must admit, I wondered why there wasn't more interest with the extra insights in to the Thoth cards from Crowley and the opportunity to have someone as knowledgeable as Aeon 418 at the helm.

If I recall correctly they finished it, didn't they? I remember wanting to, in theory, create an index of it but I never got to it (volunteers welcome!). But anyone can continue it or add to it, if you want to, feel free. You can post in the existing threads or start new ones.

The Vision and the Voice is a lot more specialized in terms of what usually goes on here, maybe that's why it wasn't popular. I read all the threads with interest but didn't have anything to contribute, waaayyy over my head. But very interesting nonetheless.
 

foolMoon

Chicken Qabalah is not a systematic study, but it is a great introduction for beginners, and it has enough depth to be of interest to those who are already familiar with the Tree. It is not Qabalah "dumbed down" (pardon the non-PC expression), but it does tend to be irreverent. There is even an excellent section on the Hebrew Alphabet, which he strongly recommends learning. The main thrust of the book is on the relation between Tarot and the Tree.

I must admit I enjoyed reading DuQuette's Chicken Qabalah. I am inetending to read it again. It is written in easy English, but the content is rich.

Anyhow, I feel that Thoth deck really shines when used with Qabalistic and Astrological attributions.

If one could use it purely by intuition, then it would be cool, but I couldn't do it.
Although I have seen a professional reader using Thoth deck purely from her intuition, and was giving great readings. But she must have been using it from 1970s according to her own confession.

I also recall a passage from Agrippa, that every divination must be based on Astrology. When we inter relate Astrology, Qabalah and Numerology with Tarot symbolism, different book meanings problem seems somewhat disappear.
 

Barleywine

I must admit I enjoyed reading DuQuette's Chicken Qabalah. I am inetending to read it again. It is written in easy English, but the content is rich.

Anyhow, I feel that Thoth deck really shines when used with Qabalistic and Astrological attributions.

If one could use it purely by intuition, then it would be cool, but I couldn't do it.
Although I have seen a professional reader using Thoth deck purely from her intuition, and was giving great readings. But she must have been using it from 1970s according to her own confession.

I also recall a passage from Agrippa, that every divination must be based on Astrology. When we inter relate Astrology, Qabalah and Numerology with Tarot symbolism, different book meanings problem seems somewhat disappear.

I fully agree. The correspondences that Crowley built into the Thoth (largely standing on the shoulders of Liber T, of course) form their own complete frame of reference that can be used with little need to resort to formal keyword meanings. This was basically the key that freed me from repeated look-ups "way back when," and required much less memorization than trying to build a mental library of standard keyword associations. They offer a complex interpretive language of their own that - once internalized through regular use - can be transferred to any other deck we choose to read.
 

smw

I must admit I enjoyed reading DuQuette's Chicken Qabalah. I am inetending to read it again. It is written in easy English, but the content is rich..

Me too:) I find the section on the paths really helpful for comparing and finding the relevant tarot cards and Hebrew meanings. Easy to look up and check if you need to.
 

Michael Sternbach

But the Book of Law itself attempts to reinvent those old symbols to better fit the new Aeon, hence it serves as a key for its deck. The harlot is now the saint while the virgin is the sinner and so classical study of its symbols, or the Jungian-common sense approach of some authors, would give the opposite results of an analysis simply because the values in the equation are different. When Aiwass talks about the Star, Emperor, "House of God" and other Tarot references he doesn't deny their existence and significance. He doesn't invent an alternative to Hebrew, or suggest calling the Star "fried pickles" but he does say that they are now to be looked at differently.

It's still the same symbolic language but a very different variant. German and English have their roots in the same proto-Germanic language yet one sounds nothing like the other because they have split. Even if they have the same building blocks they're still different languages.

A good example (going back to the thread topic ;)) might be the differences between Waite's Hanged Man and Crowley's. They're both the Dying God, to be sure, and they're both about immersion in the womb, "bosom of the Beloved," etc. But the Beloved is a different one, and so is the bosom. ;) One could try to analyze Crowley's Hanged Man according to the PKT, Jung or anything else but those sources would only take you so far, because although it walks like a Dying God and quacks like one, it's an example of one instance where it's something completely different.

Well, Crowley certainly brought his personal Hedonist philosophy into play - and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense, I actually agree that it reflects the evolving spirit of humanity in some significant ways. But this doesn't change the symbolism as such. The Dying God will always be the Dying God, only the way we look at him changes. Once formed, my philosophical tenets remain the same, no matter if I read with the Thoth or with the RWS. And Tarot (or the inner self using it as a means of communication) will advise what is right for me, independently from the deck I'm using.
 

Michael Sternbach

Zephyros,

I thought about this some more. What it all comes down to is that for you and some others here, Thelema is a religion that you seem to subscribe to whole-heartedly. And the BoT and deck naturally are among its holy scriptures.

Well, frankly, to me, they are just one interesting metaphysical system of several that I study. And I like to see the parallels in and interconnect all that I learn, much like Crowley exemplified. In this, I don't adapt myself to any such system, rather, I tailor my findings to the views and needs that suit my personality. Writing this, I realize that this somehow sounds quite Thelemic, actually...

I do agree with much of what AC taught. Then again, I read in the Book of the Law such "highlights" like:

“I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.”

Been there, done that - for a while. And I can't help wondering if draining that cup to the dregs had much to do with AC's relatively early death.

Or for another example:

Love one another with burning hearts; on the low men trample in the fierce lust of your pride, in the day of your wrath.

Now now, really... :bugeyed:
 

Barleywine

Zephyros,

I thought about this some more. What it all comes down to is that for you and some others here, Thelema is a religion that you seem to subscribe to whole-heartedly. And the BoT and deck naturally are among its holy scriptures.

Well, frankly, to me, they are just one interesting metaphysical system of several that I study. And I like to see the parallels in and interconnect all that I learn, much like Crowley exemplified. In this, I don't adapt myself to any such system, rather, I tailor my findings to the views and needs that suit my personality. Writing this, I realize that this somehow sounds quite Thelemic, actually...

I do agree with much of what AC taught. Then again, I read in the Book of the Law such "highlights" like:



Been there, done that - for a while. And I can't help wondering if draining that cup to the dregs had much to do with AC's relatively early death.

Or for another example:



Now now, really... :bugeyed:

I tend to agree with the thrust of this. At the end of the day, I take away three valuable principles from the Book of the Law: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law," "Love is the law, love under will;" and "For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect." (Also a contender: "thou hast no right but to do they will.")

While all of it is euphoric in tone, so much of it (though certainly not all - his numerical permutations have drifted in and out of my understanding over the years) seems at best to be entertaining bombast, and at worst simply faux-Egyptian window-dressing. I see the connections with the Thoth symbolism where Crowley deigns to point them out but, by and large, I find it more of an artifact than an inspiration. (And, for the record, I've worked my way carefully through it and contemplated it several times over the years; it's right up there with the Rubiyat of Omar Khayyam as one of my favorite pieces of mystical writing, if only for its poetic vigor.

What the hell, I might as well be heretical in all religions.
 

foolMoon

I fully agree. The correspondences that Crowley built into the Thoth (largely standing on the shoulders of Liber T, of course) form their own complete frame of reference that can be used with little need to resort to formal keyword meanings. This was basically the key that freed me from repeated look-ups "way back when," and required much less memorization than trying to build a mental library of standard keyword associations. They offer a complex interpretive language of their own that - once internalized through regular use - can be transferred to any other deck we choose to read.

The correspondences and key word on Thoth tarot seem more tuned to classic Astrological interpretations.

For instance, 4 of pentacles in rws, the image is all about the man's financial obsession. The character is holding onto 2 pentacles tightly while his both feet stuck onto the other two.

4 Disks in Thoth is Power and Sun in Capricorn. The image is 4 squared disks in yellow coloured back ground.

In Book of Thoth, Crowley elaborates on the card in conjunction with Qabalah, Astrology and the Yi King.

I am not sure the details on the card of RWS in PKT off hand, but the symbolism from the image is rather narrow and restricted, and the meanings and feelings of the cards of RWS and Thoth seem ocean apart.

I checked out The Sun in Capricorn from one of my vintage Astrology books, The Messages from the Stars by Heindel, and it seems being in line with the 4 Disk card of Thoth deck. But there seem no relevance between the RWS 4 of Pentacles card and The Sun in Capricorn in the book.
 

foolMoon

Me too:) I find the section on the paths really helpful for comparing and finding the relevant tarot cards and Hebrew meanings. Easy to look up and check if you need to.

Yes, I think it could be a good reference book for Hebrew and Qabalah too. It is one of my favourite books from DuQuette's followed by Understanding AC's Thoth Tarot. :)
 

Samweiss

The correspondences and key word on Thoth tarot seem more tuned to classic Astrological interpretations.

For instance, 4 of pentacles in rws, the image is all about the man's financial obsession. The character is holding onto 2 pentacles tightly while his both feet stuck onto the other two.

4 Disks in Thoth is Power and Sun in Capricorn. The image is 4 squared disks in yellow coloured back ground.

In Book of Thoth, Crowley elaborates on the card in conjunction with Qabalah, Astrology and the Yi King.

I am not sure the details on the card of RWS in PKT off hand, but the symbolism from the image is rather narrow and restricted, and the meanings and feelings of the cards of RWS and Thoth seem ocean apart.

I checked out The Sun in Capricorn from one of my vintage Astrology books, The Messages from the Stars by Heindel, and it seems being in line with the 4 Disk card of Thoth deck. But there seem no relevance between the RWS 4 of Pentacles card and The Sun in Capricorn in the book.

I don't think these cards are "oceans apart". From the PKT: "A crowned (a sign of Power surely?) figure, having a pentacle over his crown, clasps another with hands and arms; two pentacles are under his feet." Now, Crowley mentions that this card is stationery and the disks represents "law and order, maintained by constant authority and vigilance". For me, the fellow in RWS image seems to be things things. And the city background reminds me a bit about the fortress walls of the Thoth version.

That's why I don't like to look at the cards based on only the images, our interpretation gets easily skewed by our own prejudices. Many like to go for facial expressions and body postures instead of looking at human figures symbolically.