firemaiden
meatbox666 said:
Sorry, Meatbox, no, you are completely missing the point.
Four of Swords -- why not death?
Sorry, Meatbox, no, you are completely missing the point.
Minos
meatbox666 said:
I'd disagree. I'd say an HIV/AIDS positive person who is at peace with the world and ready to die a fitting death among friends and/or family would be 4 of Swords. An HIV/AIDS positive person still in the grips of fear/denial/whatever would be 5 of Swords.
Same applies to any terminal disease; and since we're all gonna die sooner or later, that means all of us.
Major Tom
Here's what A.E. Waite has to say about the 4 of Sword in his Pictorial Key to the Tarot:
"The effigy of a knight in the attitude of prayer, at full length upon his tomb. Divinatory Meanings: Vigilance, retreat, solitude, hermit's repose, exile, tomb and coffin. It is these last that have suggested the design."
Quite often we find only a portion of the divinatory meanings suggesting the entire design for the card.
These type of tombs are common across Europe. In Major Tom's Tarot I've used a photo of the tomb of a local noble from the local church.
"The effigy of a knight in the attitude of prayer, at full length upon his tomb. Divinatory Meanings: Vigilance, retreat, solitude, hermit's repose, exile, tomb and coffin. It is these last that have suggested the design."
Quite often we find only a portion of the divinatory meanings suggesting the entire design for the card.
These type of tombs are common across Europe. In Major Tom's Tarot I've used a photo of the tomb of a local noble from the local church.
Karenwhe
Re: To Cuddles on Tarot: Books vs. Gut
I would like to respectfully disagree here. The card is an Air (mind and intellect) and for me if it would mean anything close to dying it would be the death of the mind. Which in simple words would be comma or becoming in a "vegetable” state. If you get what I mean. It is true that from this state one can either come out of it or eventually die, but that would not be indicated by this card from my opinion.
That is how I would see some sort of death here, in a very extreme case.
Thirteen said:
I would like to respectfully disagree here. The card is an Air (mind and intellect) and for me if it would mean anything close to dying it would be the death of the mind. Which in simple words would be comma or becoming in a "vegetable” state. If you get what I mean. It is true that from this state one can either come out of it or eventually die, but that would not be indicated by this card from my opinion.
That is how I would see some sort of death here, in a very extreme case.
HOLMES
hi,
while i have nothing new under the sun to share eheh.
just have my obersvations based on the rider waite system.
first let us look at the number itself archtype the emperor.
he is sitting there majestic on his throne, not moving.. as an emperor, a leader, shouldn't he be ruling the land somehow? acting,, moving ? instead of sitting there like a grand figure on a throne majestic like.
so i figure he is sitting there preparing for battle, preparing for decisions, the emotional aspects of the emperess have been dealt with,
the only thing now is the logical decision, and the conquences that will come with them.
looking at four in all suits,, they have all taken a break from their endevours of the suit..
four of wands the active element takes a break to celebrate from spirituality.
the four of cups takes break from emotional flow of the cup to wonder why it is all occuring.. how many more cups can he deal with.
the four of pentacles a man holding on his to resources close to him, wondering how long he can hold his wealth to himself.
and here in the four of swords we have a person resting in the church,, mediating, resting his mind.
they are all preparing for the next card,, the challenge. of the fives,
five of wands and five of swords are all fighting,
five of pentacles and five of cups is about lost.
let us examine this in greater detail.
(assuming that going from 4 to five here )
four of wands celebrating,, a prebattle feast to let down their hair for in the next morning there will be tests of great strenght , of ideals, and the measure of men. which is shown in the equality of the five of wands battle.
the four of swords a person preparing for the battle ahead in the next day shown int he five of swords . this battle is differnt however.. whereas in the five of wands, equlity of strenght is shown, (i for some equate it to a joust in my mind) for each soul is equal.
the five of swords show a obivous victor,, and the two losers who have lost their swords, their dignity, and since the swords is a mind suit they have losts parts of the mind in the battle.
war can huant a man in battle and never again are they the same.
five of pentalces shows a man and woman running in the snow, how did the miser lose it all in the four of wands to fall to such depts of being a begger in the snow ? he prepared phyisically for this test, he knew it was coming .
five of cups.. four of cups a person hardening his heart,, some see him as drugged in other rider waite clones, yet he is preparing his heart for the ineivatible heart break shown in five of cups where he has lost three of his cups and still has two behind him.
so just based on these little flows,,
the four of swords isn't about death,, but rest from the mind, from strife, a brief respite in times of wars, or a brief rest to prepare one self for a lifetime of soldering and war, as a knight. (be it jedi or not who knows little joke here ehhe)
also the 78 degres point out that waite intended the cards to be manfiestion 10 to one instead of the established, to most of us logical , continatuion of 1 to 10.
i dont' have my 78 degrees ,, or studied a book in weeks. but let me reverse it for you , base level.
consider the 5 of pentacles, some challengs are being experiences.
in the four of pentacles the begger has found some money and keeping it,, deciding where to put the money for best investment.
the five of cups.. a person is experiencing loss of emotioanl love and relationships wondering how in the world can i get by this, not realizaing the gifts they still have.. the memories, the long serving love.
in the four of cups,, he is saying i have accepted my past loves, and lost
and now i am seeking where best to put my love, my emotioanal investments. in my imagination ,, the man is kind of noticing to the side the cup in the air being offered to him.
from his deatachment he can see the gift truly offered by the unvierse, where before looking at the other three cups he wouldn't look up as he would of been too attached to notice, saying this cup here is the best for me.
the five of wands.. the joust of wands,, the challenge of innerspirits in the games where the bystanders watch..
in the four of wands ,, it is the night celebrating in time of peace, on this day you have done your best and now it is time to rest and enjoy the fruits of your efforts.
so we come back to the swords which is the topic of this thread.
in the five of swords, a differnt battle was fought,, mind over matter, ruthlessnes over understood rules ( example of what i mean here is the streetfighter of the rule fighter,) or it might be just the smarter man won.
here we are at the four of wands.. which we can have two takes.
the victor himself coming to terms of what he has done in order to win,, trying to forgive himself.. forget ,, and put it behind him, the time of war is done.
or we could have the loser, resting there, coming to terms with his lose, his innerworth.. the realization of his strenghts and weakness. as he sits there vulcan like
(consider the star trek ,, where spoke would lay there in mediation,, i am not sure if he did it in star trek 2 or 3,
but i know in star trek six he was laying there in the mediatve postion coming to terms with his delusions of his number one vulcan potege who betrayed the federation)
while i have nothing new under the sun to share eheh.
just have my obersvations based on the rider waite system.
first let us look at the number itself archtype the emperor.
he is sitting there majestic on his throne, not moving.. as an emperor, a leader, shouldn't he be ruling the land somehow? acting,, moving ? instead of sitting there like a grand figure on a throne majestic like.
so i figure he is sitting there preparing for battle, preparing for decisions, the emotional aspects of the emperess have been dealt with,
the only thing now is the logical decision, and the conquences that will come with them.
looking at four in all suits,, they have all taken a break from their endevours of the suit..
four of wands the active element takes a break to celebrate from spirituality.
the four of cups takes break from emotional flow of the cup to wonder why it is all occuring.. how many more cups can he deal with.
the four of pentacles a man holding on his to resources close to him, wondering how long he can hold his wealth to himself.
and here in the four of swords we have a person resting in the church,, mediating, resting his mind.
they are all preparing for the next card,, the challenge. of the fives,
five of wands and five of swords are all fighting,
five of pentacles and five of cups is about lost.
let us examine this in greater detail.
(assuming that going from 4 to five here )
four of wands celebrating,, a prebattle feast to let down their hair for in the next morning there will be tests of great strenght , of ideals, and the measure of men. which is shown in the equality of the five of wands battle.
the four of swords a person preparing for the battle ahead in the next day shown int he five of swords . this battle is differnt however.. whereas in the five of wands, equlity of strenght is shown, (i for some equate it to a joust in my mind) for each soul is equal.
the five of swords show a obivous victor,, and the two losers who have lost their swords, their dignity, and since the swords is a mind suit they have losts parts of the mind in the battle.
war can huant a man in battle and never again are they the same.
five of pentalces shows a man and woman running in the snow, how did the miser lose it all in the four of wands to fall to such depts of being a begger in the snow ? he prepared phyisically for this test, he knew it was coming .
five of cups.. four of cups a person hardening his heart,, some see him as drugged in other rider waite clones, yet he is preparing his heart for the ineivatible heart break shown in five of cups where he has lost three of his cups and still has two behind him.
so just based on these little flows,,
the four of swords isn't about death,, but rest from the mind, from strife, a brief respite in times of wars, or a brief rest to prepare one self for a lifetime of soldering and war, as a knight. (be it jedi or not who knows little joke here ehhe)
also the 78 degres point out that waite intended the cards to be manfiestion 10 to one instead of the established, to most of us logical , continatuion of 1 to 10.
i dont' have my 78 degrees ,, or studied a book in weeks. but let me reverse it for you , base level.
consider the 5 of pentacles, some challengs are being experiences.
in the four of pentacles the begger has found some money and keeping it,, deciding where to put the money for best investment.
the five of cups.. a person is experiencing loss of emotioanl love and relationships wondering how in the world can i get by this, not realizaing the gifts they still have.. the memories, the long serving love.
in the four of cups,, he is saying i have accepted my past loves, and lost
and now i am seeking where best to put my love, my emotioanal investments. in my imagination ,, the man is kind of noticing to the side the cup in the air being offered to him.
from his deatachment he can see the gift truly offered by the unvierse, where before looking at the other three cups he wouldn't look up as he would of been too attached to notice, saying this cup here is the best for me.
the five of wands.. the joust of wands,, the challenge of innerspirits in the games where the bystanders watch..
in the four of wands ,, it is the night celebrating in time of peace, on this day you have done your best and now it is time to rest and enjoy the fruits of your efforts.
so we come back to the swords which is the topic of this thread.
in the five of swords, a differnt battle was fought,, mind over matter, ruthlessnes over understood rules ( example of what i mean here is the streetfighter of the rule fighter,) or it might be just the smarter man won.
here we are at the four of wands.. which we can have two takes.
the victor himself coming to terms of what he has done in order to win,, trying to forgive himself.. forget ,, and put it behind him, the time of war is done.
or we could have the loser, resting there, coming to terms with his lose, his innerworth.. the realization of his strenghts and weakness. as he sits there vulcan like
(consider the star trek ,, where spoke would lay there in mediation,, i am not sure if he did it in star trek 2 or 3,
but i know in star trek six he was laying there in the mediatve postion coming to terms with his delusions of his number one vulcan potege who betrayed the federation)
cuddles
wonderful
thanks everyone. thank you thirteen. this conversation has helped me a lot.
and, luckily, what i read here fits in with how i would like to use the cards! i feel like i'm working this out, slowly but surely. and partly by not trying too hard at it. letting it develop more naturally than i did at first. seeing what i see in the cards and then comparing that to what i can read about them. i've never been comfortable doing it without the books. i love reading what they say and comparing and deciding what i think. but i don't want to become a slave to the books!
thanks firemaiden for starting this conversation
i know my appreciation and understanding of the tarot has been greatly enhanced by the conversation and support here at aeclectic. i'll become a member as soon as my budget allows
thanks everyone. thank you thirteen. this conversation has helped me a lot.
and, luckily, what i read here fits in with how i would like to use the cards! i feel like i'm working this out, slowly but surely. and partly by not trying too hard at it. letting it develop more naturally than i did at first. seeing what i see in the cards and then comparing that to what i can read about them. i've never been comfortable doing it without the books. i love reading what they say and comparing and deciding what i think. but i don't want to become a slave to the books!
thanks firemaiden for starting this conversation
i know my appreciation and understanding of the tarot has been greatly enhanced by the conversation and support here at aeclectic. i'll become a member as soon as my budget allows
Thirteen
Re: Re: To Cuddles on Tarot: Books vs. Gut
Agreed, actually. That's more or less what I meant--that in a given reading, with other cards surrounding it, this card could be one of many cards leading to an interpetation of death. As you point out, it would be the part of the story predicting that a very ill person is about slip into a coma--and if followed with the right card, you might then say, "they won't come out of the coma. They will pass on."
Another thought on this card that hasn't been considered is that it might be post-mortem, a card indicating the need to sit at a gravesite and connect with one who has died. We see the coffin and think death, but we forget that it's the LIVING who look at coffins. It doesn't indicate that someone will die, so much as it could indicate that the querent is having thoughts and meditations about those who have died, meditations on life, lost or even--in regards to the HIV interpetations--thoughts on how they want to go in the end, where they want to be buried, how they want to be remembered. Meloncholy thoughts, but very within the realm of swords.
Karenwhe said:
Agreed, actually. That's more or less what I meant--that in a given reading, with other cards surrounding it, this card could be one of many cards leading to an interpetation of death. As you point out, it would be the part of the story predicting that a very ill person is about slip into a coma--and if followed with the right card, you might then say, "they won't come out of the coma. They will pass on."
Another thought on this card that hasn't been considered is that it might be post-mortem, a card indicating the need to sit at a gravesite and connect with one who has died. We see the coffin and think death, but we forget that it's the LIVING who look at coffins. It doesn't indicate that someone will die, so much as it could indicate that the querent is having thoughts and meditations about those who have died, meditations on life, lost or even--in regards to the HIV interpetations--thoughts on how they want to go in the end, where they want to be buried, how they want to be remembered. Meloncholy thoughts, but very within the realm of swords.
firemaiden
Re: Re: Re: To Cuddles on Tarot: Books vs. Gut
That is a really cool thought. In contemplating at this card, then, it is the reader himself who illustrates its meaning. Thank you Thirteen!
Thirteen said:
That is a really cool thought. In contemplating at this card, then, it is the reader himself who illustrates its meaning. Thank you Thirteen!
Karenwhe
Another thought/possibility that came to my mind after reading Thirteen last post:
In the Jewish religion after the death of a person and his/her burial there is a ritual called "Shiva" people sit on the floor for seven days to commemorate or grief the deceased (a bit more complicated but this would be the short version of the story). Though there have to me minimum 7 people to make the “shiva” if I am not mistaking.
As a meditation for the dead this could also represent a "Shiva". This ritual is not modern by they way, it is thousands of years old.
In the Jewish religion after the death of a person and his/her burial there is a ritual called "Shiva" people sit on the floor for seven days to commemorate or grief the deceased (a bit more complicated but this would be the short version of the story). Though there have to me minimum 7 people to make the “shiva” if I am not mistaking.
As a meditation for the dead this could also represent a "Shiva". This ritual is not modern by they way, it is thousands of years old.
meatbox666
I do not know how to quote sentences. I agree with you Minos, only if the HIV person is at peace then 4 of swords is befitting. If not, them 5 of swords. Let us take a look at the coma situation. If this were the case I feel strongly that the Moon would be present. Should it be reversed, the Moon, in the case of a coma patient. So we have the four of swords and the Moon. I would expect to see these cards come up in a coma patient. In regards to a burial, someone looking at the coffin, would not the five of swords be present also with the four of swords to indicate that a death occured? I am just asking. I would also excpect to see the Death card reversed in the spread also.
