XV Le Diable

Macavity

Thank you folks. Yes, I suspect it is MOSTLY to create a feeling of strangeness. Interestingly enough it is perhaps the aspect that is most effective - on me anyway :) Thanks for the link Baba-Prague - indeed quite remarkable! I'm sure I would find your statues fascinating. I certainly love all things ancient and sometimes (slightly) bizarre. Oops perhaps I should rephrase that last bit to avoid volunteers? LOL. Ah, the tag line was not quite original, since I played about with it slightly. But what a great concept though... Heheh :D

Macavity
 

jmd

Thank you indeed for that link, Baba-Prague. I must admit that thought I find O'Neill work totally along my preferred lines of inquiry, I had not seen these three essays on those cards - which I will need to read tomorrow!

Thanks again.

[please note that I have merged this thread into the larger discussion for ease of further discussion and reference - jmd]
 

firemaiden

where the wild things are...

I have looked at every one of these attached devils, and the Robert O'Neill devil iconography site. (Wow!), and have this incredibly profound statement to add: they are all so cute! They are fuzzy and furry, with chicken feet. What wonderful imaginations those medieval guys had. :D They remind me of Sendak's Where the Wild Things Are, and that movie "Monsters Inc." with the fuzzy green monster affectionately nick-named "Kitty" by the child.

I especially like devil #9 on O'Neill's site, with its wonderful ...er...appendage...:p
 

Diana

I found this picture on a web-site devoted to Tarot. But I forgot to bookmark the web-site and I can't find it anymore. I remember the author saying that this picture is in l'Eglise des Templiers in Paris. It certainly has similarities to the Marseilles Devil.
 

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Moongold

catboxer said:
All of this reminds of an incident that occurs early on in the Book of Mark, when Jesus is exorcising a demon. When he asks the demon its name, it replies, "My name is Legion," which I take to mean, "I am many." It seems to me that this and the medieval pictures of devils and demons, might express a pre-modern awareness of the nature of schizophrenia, and an interpretation of the disease as diabolical possession. I have never seen a pre-modern clinical description of this illness (if anyone knows of one I would love see it), but it seems reasonable that people who lived before our time must have been aware of the voices which afflict schizophrenics, and the sensation experienced by the sufferers of having been invaded and taken over by sinister outside forces. But of course, all this is merely speculation.

Catboxer, I'm not sure where you draw the boundaries of modernism but here is some history which you might find interesting.

"Clinical descriptions" of of mental illness parallel the advent of psychiatry, which arguably could be placed in the second half of the 18th century. However, there were institutions for the mentally ill going right back to mediaeval times. These were known as "fool's houses". And we all know that the "mad" were often homeless. Shakespeare described them in King Lear:

Poor naked wretches, wheresoe'er you are,
That bide the pelting of the pitiless storm,
How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
Your loop'd and window'd raggedness, defend you
From seasons such as these?


In fact it is interesting to associate the idea of the homeless madman with the archetype of the Fool in Tarot. The fool with his staff was a standard iconograohic image in the middle ages. The image of the Fool wandering aimlessly, sharing visions and wisdom (perhaps nowadays understood as hallucinations and magical language) is an interesting one to consider when thinking of the origin of the Fool in Tarot.

Back to madness, in 1758 William Battye, the founding medical officer of St. Lukes' Hospital for the Insane in London, wrote the Treatise on Madness in which he advocated the therapeutic value of asylums. I haven't read this but you might well find some definitions here. Battye believed that madness was curable. The Florentine "psychiatrist" Vincenzo Chiarugi wrote a three volume work On Insanity in 1794. Another important figure in the advent of psychiatry as a profession was Philippe Pinel who was appointed to manage the Bicetre Hospice shortly after Charlotte Corday murdered Marat in 1793. Pinel also wrote extensively on the mentally ill and had some quite revolutionary (for the time) ideas on their treatment.

You may find some clinical descriptions of "schizophrenia" (which wasn't named then, by the way) or madness in these texts. It was not until 1897 that the German psychiatrist, Kraepelin, formulated the concept of schizophrenia, I think.

Someone earlier commented that people with epilepsy were also regarded as possessed by the Devil and often incarcerated with the mentally ill. This all reminds me of a point made by Diana somewhere else on Aeclectic that the Devil has been blamed for many things, probably unjustly.

I am just new to this discussion but it is very interesting to think about how the Devil has carried Western society's worst projections of it's own ignorance, fear and corruption and how this is represented in the Devil images.

Moongold
 

Moongold

The Devil and Madness

This is becoming a monologue :joke: but as the histories of mental illness I have available to be right now have a fairly limited view I had a quick look around the net for some more information.

Midelfort's History of madness in 16th century Germany has some fascinating material describing the passage of madness diagnosed as melancholy humour (black bile) to demonic possession. The new theories of demonic possession coincided with witchcraft in 16th century Germany and there was a particular chap, Johan Weyer who defended women against charges of witchcraft on the grounds that they were possessed by the Devil. This was regarded as medical evidence at the time and was the first time in known history that demonic possession had been offered as a medical defence.

So, in essence, demonic possession was the clinical diagnosis.

Thanks for listening :laugh: . This information is probably not all that new to you but may be to others. It also shows the profound influence the Devil has had on our social and scientific (medical) history.

Back to Tarot now!

Moongold
 

Macavity

Hmm - seems vaguely familiar... I wonder if Diana's image is not of Lilith - the Kabalistic(?) "first consort of Adam"? (From memory) One of her notable features was those distinctive claw-like feet ;) A google search for "Lilith" images might help. But... no time!

Macavity

OK, I had to look for myself didn't I? http://www.abaxion.com/stlil.htm What do they say about meaningful coincidence? - First time lucky maybe! :D
 

firemaiden

Way to go Macavity!! That Lillith sure looks like Diana's picture. I mean, whoops! the picture of the Devil that Diana put up. :laugh:
 

Diana

Macavity: excellent work. You get 10 out of 10. I had no idea that Lilith had this reputation of having clawed feet.

firemaiden: (I have nothing to say :laugh: )

So the Marseilles Tarot Devil may have been influenced by a Babylonian statue from about 2000 BC (as far as I can make out from my today's research). I had actually never thought of the Devil in the Marseilles Tarot as having female attributes, and this certainly provides a different outlook on this creature.

In "Hebrew Myths" by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, they say the following about Lilith (the last sentence I find highly amusing):

'Lilith' is usually derived from the Babylonian-Assyrian word lilitu, a female demon, or wind-spirit'- one of a triad mentioned in Babylonian spells. But she appears earlier as 'Lillake' on a 2000 B.G. Sumerian tablet from Ur containing the tale of Gilgamesh and the Willow Tree. There she is a demoness dwelling in the trunk of a willow-tree tended by the Goddess Inanna (Anath) on the banks of the Euphrates. Popular Hebrew etymology seems to have derived 'Lilith' from layil, 'night'; and she therefore often appears as a hairy night-monster, as she also does in Arabian folklore. Solomon suspected the Queen of Sheba of being Lilith, because she had hairy legs.
 

wolfen045

The Devil made me ad this lol

For some great medieval woodcuts and Church Iconography related to the devil and witch craft, I would like to metion the following book: The Illustated Anthology Of Sorcery, Magic and Alchemy. The auther is Emile Grillot De Grivry and it was originally published in France in 1929. I would share some of my favorite woodcuts but alas, I do not have a scanner ,Yet! :) BTW As a fairly new member of this Forum I continue to be amazed at the quality of the knowledge and scholarship to be found on this sight. It is better than an encyclopedia ! Blessings and Joy to all, wolfen