XV Le Diable

Diana

Mark: I just want to take this opportunity to welcome you warmly to our forum. Truly hope you will enjoy our conversations. :)

Sigh.... now we have to learn Hebrew as well. So much to do, so little time! Question: Has the Hebrew language changed much in the last few centuries, or is it basically the same?
 

filipas

Diana wrote:
Mark: I just want to take this opportunity to welcome you warmly to our forum. Truly hope you will enjoy our conversations. :)
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Thanks, Diana, and to everyone here for such a nice welcome! The various forums and threads here are great - I enjoy it already.

Diana wrote:

Sigh.... now we have to learn Hebrew as well. So much to do, so little time! Question: Has the Hebrew language changed much in the last few centuries, or is it basically the same?
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I hope you are encouraged when I say that exploring these alphabetic ideas does not require learning the Hebrew language 'per se'. It does require familiarity with the letters themselves, enough familiarity so that one can recognize the letterform shapes and be comfortable navigating Hebrew lexicons or dictionaries. This isn't too difficult a task: there are only 22 letterforms plus the 5 additional letterforms used when certain letters find themselves at the end of a word. I suspect many Tarotists already have a head start at this since they have probably been exposed to the letters during the course of their Tarot studies.

To answer your question: the Hebrew lexicon - and by 'lexicon' I mean the entire body of words current in any given language - has changed markedly since the Middle Ages/Renaissance. Probably the biggest difference between Hebrew then and now is that many archaic words have since fallen from actual usage, and so have been stripped from modern Hebrew dictionaries. Also missing are the many Greek and Latin words which were appropriated into medieval Hebrew language and literature. For these reasons, modern Hebrew dictionaries are of little help when researching possible connections between Hebrew and the early Tarot. Fortunately, two of the best sources are readily available and affordable, these being Jastrow's 'A Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and the Yerushalmi' (The Judaica Press) and Grossman's 'Compendious Hebrew–English Dictionary, Comprising a complete vocabulary of Biblical, Mishnaic, Medieval and Modern Hebrew' (Dvir Publishing Co.). Grossman's Dictionary is probably the one to start with if one is still getting comfortable with the Hebrew alphabet, the reason being that it is a more concise compilation and because it helps identify those Hebrew words which are archaic and/or medieval.

Thanks,
- Mark
 

Diana

Mark: Actually, I have not been exposed much to the Hebrew alphabet during my studies - it is something I have always put aside. So your posts are really very interesting. Of course, jmd had shared a little of your findings with us on the forums, but I had never taken the time I should have to really try and understand all you have been researching. Your posts are most enlightening and give me the extra push I needed. Thank you for your previous posts and may there be many more.
 

firemaiden

filipas said:
I find that the Marseilles trump images parallel medieval Hebrew in an uncanny way.
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Mark the parallels you have pointed out to us, here and on your site, are totalling frigging AMAZING. I read your site just a few days ago on this topic, and delighted to see you have spelled it out even more here for Arcane XV. I am eager to see what you find for the other trumps as well.

This stuff is soo soo exciting.
 

filipas

jmd wrote:
As mentioned either earlier this thread or in others, the triple nipple I also personally view as quite important... that it is the 'Devil's mark' also indicates, to my mind, again that it is there for the suckling.
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I've never heard the three marks referred to as "nipples" before. I have no real theory about them other than that they are probably "devil's marks", the type of marks which signalled a pact with Satan. What significance do you think they may have?

jmd wrote:
The possible castration of the two figures is quite an interesting possibility. These are the kinds of reflections which always add to further insights into the iconography of the deck. For those who have not noticed the possible castrated member at the tip of the 'blade', the Conver is really the version to view, as it is not included in most other decks. Thanks also for pointing out its inclusion in the Chosson - but I as yet cannot see it (maybe my edition of the Encyclopedia isn't as clear).
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It is dark in my edition too but the linework looks nearly identical under magnification, as far as I can tell. What we need is a publisher (such as Il Meneghello) to release an edition of the Chosson; our study of the Marseilles could then extend back about 100 years earlier than the Conver.

jmd wrote:
Personally, and though it is possible that the 'belt' of the Devil may be used to have the testicles and penis attached, it seems more natural - to me - to consider that the genitalia is its own...
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I know the 'belt' idea sounds far-fetched, I'm not convinced myself that this particular meaning was intended. I do think that, as an explanation, it takes into account all of the iconographic details. It also plays with the way in which allegorical pictures were interpreted at the time: not only might the design have been poking fun at the devil (the silly horns, the crossed-eyes) but it could have simultaneously represented the idea that "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!"

Thanks,
- Mark
 

kwaw

Moonbow* said:
Together with this ( in the Hadar at least) his eyes look crossed.
Moonbow*
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Mars [the 'lesser malefic'] is exalted in Capricorn
[ruled by Saturn, the 'greater malefic']. Capricorn therefore
[attributed to the letter 'Ayin' (one of which meanings is 'eye') in the Sepher Yetzira]], through its association with both malefics, would seem an appropriate attribution of the 'Devil' card. Added to this is the association of the sign with the goat, which in both Christian and Judaic myth and folklore was an image associated with evil.

In connection with 'eyes' the 'Angel' of Mars is Sammael, who was for Jews in the middle ages the principle name associated with the great Devil and his dominion. He was said to be the demon of blindness, which is interesting in connection with Ayin as 'eye'. Among gnostics he was called the 'Blind God' and 'God of the Blind'. Among the Ophites a 'blind angel' who is evil and satanic, and also called the 'blind dragon'. Among the Sabians of Harran Mars itself was called the 'blind master', interesting that the Angel of Mars shares the attribute of
blindness here, and in Jewish lists of Angels Sammael is also
attributed to Mars.
[See: Origins of Kabbalah, Gershom Scholem, page 295]

Of Capricorn and Satan it may be of note that there is in Jewish
tradition a connection between Satan and Goats as there is in
Christian, for example Isaac the Blind wrote:

"He who lives with herds of sheep, even if it is in high mountains
and desert wastes, which are uninhabited, has no need to fear Satan and the evil powers, for no evil spirit rules among them. But he who lives among goats, of him it can be said: that even when he is surrounded by ten houses and a hundred men, an evil spirit rules over them."
[Scholem, p. 297]

Satan in nonetheless considered an aspect of God and is considered in respect to 'The left eye of God' that looks downwards. The left being connected with the North as the source of evil, Satan himself being called the Spirit of the North [or may be translated alternatively as 'North Wind']. The root of the name Satan is also connected to the root for 'downwards'. The eye that looks downwards is said to be looking into darkness [hence may be considered 'blind'? As with Samael?]

Kwaw
 

Moonbow

Thankyou Kwaw

I have learnt alot about this card (and I am still learning)

Moonbow*
 

kwaw

kwaw said:

In connection with 'eyes' the 'Angel' of Mars is Sammael, who was for Jews in the middle ages the principle name associated with the great Devil and his dominion. .... The eye that looks downwards is said to be looking into darkness [hence may be considered 'blind'? As with Samael?]
Kwaw
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Though I have traced an association to Samael through the astrological correspondences [capricorn and relationship to the traditional 'malefics'] and meaning [eye] of Ayin, if 'Samael' begins with samech there could be a correspondence with Mark Filipos system [I haven't looked it up, could be that it starts with shin].

Kwaw
 

WolfyJames

The first thing that I though when I looked at this card was Pinochio. You know, the puppet Pinochio. At some point in the story, Pinochio starts transforming into a donkey, and Pinochio has the ears and the tail of a donkey. The people who are attached to the Devil have the ears, legs and tail of a donkey. Why?
 
Carte Fine All Leone (Minchiate) Six de Coupe