XV Le Diable

jmd said I was to post over here about a comment I had on the Devil (in the Conver Marseilles). The antlers, to me at least, seemed to indicate a sort of rutting feeling among the three. Horns are more familiar on domestic animals, whereas antlers are strictly 'wild', and in Europe, they'd probably be a stand-in for the red deer in the area. Deer are pretty single minded about sex when their season comes in the fall. I figured that all three individuals having antlers on their heads would indicate the same properties in humans (to their downfall?).

WolfyJames wrote:
The people who are attached to the Devil have the ears, legs and tail of a donkey. Why?

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There is an interesting illustration by Geofroy Tory in his 1529 Champ Fleury, illustrating the "golden bough" described by Virgil. Two branches are shown. One is the branch of learning, having 23 leaves corresponding to the 23 letters of the Roman alphabet. Beneath is the branch of ignorance, a dry and leafless twig.

http://www.SpiritOne.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Essays/d-branch.html

It is worth quoting an English translation of Tory's explanation of the image, as an example of the alphabetic interests in France during this time:

"I have drawn the golden bough according to Virgil in the verses hereinbefore quoted, which, as I have said, signifies learning; & beneath it the limb without leaves, which denotes ignorance. But note well how, on the said golden bough, I have drawn three twigs, of which the one in the middle, which is the chief and longest one, has nine leaves, wherein are written, one apart from another, the nine mutes, B, C, D, F, G, K, P, Q, T, which represent the nine Muses. Then, on another twig, at the left side, there are seven leaves wherein in like manner are written the seven semi-vowels, L, M, N, R, S, X, and Z, which represent the seven Liberal Arts. Likewise the third, right-hand twig has on it seven leaves, wherein are written the five Latin vowels, A, E, I, O, V, and one Greek one, Y, and with them the aspirate H, which, because it is not deemed a true letter, is written in the lowest leaf. By which six vowells and aspirate, we understand the four Cardinal Virtues and the Graces, of comely grace and virtue. Thus, then, in the said Golden Bough of Virgil are comprised and covertly suggested the nine Muses, the Seven Liberal Arts, the four Cardinal Virtues, and the three Graces, which make the full number of the three-and-twenty letters of the Alphabet." (Champ Fleury, 1967 Dover edition translated by George B. Ives.)

Tory's 'branch of ignorance' strikes me as having a possible iconographic and symbolic correspondence to the "antlers" on Trump XV.

Thanks,

- Mark

From what I can see, I don't think this has already been covered so.......

It's the holes/eyes in the Devil's knees - only in 'some' Marseilles decks though. I'm wondering why this is, particularly because Yaboot started an interesting thread in the Divination forum about a dream which relates to this:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=417066#post417066

Very early in this thread (post 4), catboxer writes:

Picturing the devil with multiple faces, most commonly on the belly but sometimes on the knees or other parts of the body, was very common in medieval and renaissance times. Devils and demons were often depicted as androgynes as well.

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I personally suspect that the eyes upon the knees are remnants of this, and that some early depictions had whole small heads emerging from the knees.

I see Yaboot's dream in which he talks of holes somewhat different - in that a whole is an opening within a membrane that is not meant to have one - hence a weakening of some kind.

The Devil's multiple faces, in contrast, recall the 'legions' inhabiting the same body, yet each grotesque in their own way.

Everything about this card reeks of spiritual death and bondage.

fools_fool

I haven't read all my way through this thread, so I may merely being repetitive. I once, way back in the dim dark ages of the late 1980's wrote a lengthy thesis on mental illness as a social construction. I can't speak for Europe, only Great Britain & Australia, but until the Anglican Church became the state church in GB, those who suffered from schizophrenia were more likely to be treated as 'special' than otherwise. Given visual and auditory hallucinations, it was believed that these people may actually really be seeing and talking to Jesus, angels, god and so on.

It was people with melacholia (similar to depression, though not exactly the same) who were perceived to be 'mad'. Why? because suicidal ideation and suicidal acts meant that you were choosing eternal hell over life with god in his heaven. No one in their 'right' mind, the argument went, would do such a thing. In fact, the widow and children of a suicide were left penniless and homeless as a mad-person was not allowed to own any possession (dead or alive).

In fact, although schizophrenic hallucinations were frowned upon by the Anglican's, it was not really until the period of the industrial revolution that 'madness' was separated out from other forms of indigent behaviour. This is largely because of the shift to cities, the inability of families to care for their mentally ill, or in anyway disabled, people because of the need for all able-bodied members to work, and the break-up of the parish support systems.

So, firstly, with enclosure during the agrarian revolution and the beginnings of moves towards city living, 'inconvenient' people became a problem, and first were merely jailed. Later, asylums were built. The first was Bethlehem Hospital (aka Bedlam). One can argue that the mid to late 20th century de-instituionalisation of the mentally ill was more a product of economic forces (due to the need to replace aging and dangerous building) than care and understanding of the value of community living for those who require social support, just as the move into big asylums with the industrial revolution was economically based.

And, yep, people with epilepsy (my ex-father-in-law) still occasionally are confronted with rabid pentacostal types (my ex-brother-in-law) who see a seizure as evidence of devil possession. We know who was 'the devil' in that situation, when ex Father-in-law had a seizure in the shower, ex brother-in-law attempted exorcism (the devil at work and play), my ex-husband punched brother in the mouth, my ex mother-in-law called the ambulance, and I staunched the bleeding from ex-F-I-L's wounds from broken shower glass.

Thanks for the information on the eyes and faces on the bodies of the Marseille and Marseille type devils. I am painting my Devil card currently and have been wondering about the symbolism.

thanks
mythos

mythos said:

I haven't read all my way through this thread, so I may merely being repetitive. I once, way back in the dim dark ages of the late 1980's wrote a lengthy thesis on mental illness as a social construction. I can't speak for Europe, only Great Britain & Australia, but until the Anglican Church became the state church in GB, those who suffered from schizophrenia were more likely to be treated as 'special' than otherwise. Given visual and auditory hallucinations, it was believed that these people may actually really be seeing and talking to Jesus, angels, god and so on.

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So what does "special treatment" mean, given that Aborigines also get "special treatment" down under? ;-P

mythos said:

It was people with melacholia (similar to depression, though not exactly the same) who were perceived to be 'mad'. Why? because suicidal ideation and suicidal acts meant that you were choosing eternal hell over life with god in his heaven.

Click to expand...

If my past life as Nietzsche taught me one thing, it seems that suicide may = a rational solution, under some circumstances ;-P

mythos said:

So, firstly, with enclosure during the agrarian revolution and the beginnings of moves towards city living, 'inconvenient' people became a problem, and first were merely jailed. Later, asylums were built. The first was Bethlehem Hospital (aka Bedlam).

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They also have a Bethlehem hospital in Bergen, to schizophrenic hubby's considerable amusement!

Not too sure what all this has to do with the symbolism of the Devil card, except that he bears a striking resemblance to the Devil ("Ally") of the Secret Dakini Oracle ;-P

Little Devils

they look up to him
in his hand of fellowship
he holds their handcuffs