The Star card

ravenest

And Raven, I love your lengthy tracts of thought process and discussion. And so Aeon, I point you to what Ravenest wrote and in nswer to your criticism of my opinion merely state, "What he/she said!" (sorry Raven, am unaware of your gender) ;) :)

Gee wizz. I got up this morning, checked some notes and went; "ah its all wrong, I'm gonna go and wipe 95 % of my last post. It's so muddles and will only add to the confusion. I also realised that the copies and prints of other peoples posts have these huge gaps and I have been thinking that Aeon was writing what Lily frog wrote and visa versa .... dear me. can someone please explain a technical IT question to me please?
Where is the knob on this internet thingy where I turn down my stupidity level?

Also there seems to be problem with the internal workings of Aeclectic tarot.
I type in what makes sense ... and then it comes up rubbish ... ver confusing
 

ravenest

Windhorse said:
I guess I was getting in touch with my INFJ-esque intuition and felt that Aiwass was perhaps a trickster spirit, trying to confuse the issue (either that or Big Al had one hell of a Hookah!) - as Aeon said, "There is no loop in the Universe."

...But then again, maybe there is! Who am I to make such braod sweeping absolutist statements.


I missed that one; Aeon saying "There is no loop in the Universe."
Surely there is .... look far enough and you will see the back of your own head. see the mobius strip in the card and the topological puzzle in the back ground (3 d sculpture of a mobius strip?) ... we are talking about The Universe are we, or are we talking about The Universe
.... card?

I did say "There is no loop in the solar system." but I probably shoulda said
'There is no apparent and obvious looping process in the normal circular arrangement of the progressive astrological houses."

Sheeeezzzz! :)
 

Aeon418

Er....eh...what?!

What ever you're on, I want some. LOL :D
 

Windhorse

Yes Aeon, thanks for that explanation....

I must say I went to bed last nite with hebrew alphabets and tarot cards whizzing around in my head - that was no way to end the evening, I can tell you. Kids: don't try this at home!

Ravenest: I can empathise with your chaotic-ness. I felt that way last night.

But here's the thing: I really got excited about the whole Lamed=Strength thing last night. That has made my consciousness buzz. I've been wanting to sink into the depths of further investigation all day, but instead had to deal with more mundane matters like shopping, changing daughter's nappies, cooking dinner, allowing my wife to use the internet, etc.

That one is really working for me - and yes I even like your interp Aeon of placing the Emperor down below and the Star up with the other ladies. Unfortunately all my books on qabbalah are 300 km away at my bush retreat, and I'm here in Smellbourne about to start a new course (completely unrelated to Tarot, Qabbalah or anyting else esoteric). So I'll just have to plug away with my cards and the few tarot books I have with me, and this wonderful website.

Incidentally, I checked out filipas' site last nite, and he has an interesting take on the hebrew-tarot correlations:
www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Essays/epsilon.htm
He claims that the 'translations' or understandings of the hebrew letters are wrong and they keep getting repeated. Basically, Aleph is the Magician, then they go in order, with The Fool as Tav.

Check it out, and tell me what you reckon....
 

Alta

ravenest, at the upper right of the frame around the posts, is a clickable word called Thread Tools. If you click on that a drop down menu appears and one of the options is Show Printable Version. If your print from that version you will have less trouble seeing who said what. To get out of that View, use the back button on your browser.
Marion
 

Aeon418

Windhorse said:
He claims that the 'translations' or understandings of the hebrew letters are wrong and they keep getting repeated. Basically, Aleph is the Magician, then they go in order, with The Fool as Tav.

Check it out, and tell me what you reckon....
Your link doesn't work Windhorse.

The Tarot and the Hebrew letters are totally separate systems. The only common feature is that they both contain 22 units. The hebrew letters could be attributed to the Tarot in any number of ways and each would be equally as valid as any other. Each different attribution is like a different language. If we share the same language we can both communicate using a shared symbol system. By using a shared symbol system we can also take note of the different relationships between the different symbols and apply meaning to those relationships. But the whole system is essentially a self referential and self contained one.

The different patterns, relationships and correspondences are like the grammar and syntax of a language. If you try to import ideas from another system it's like trying to do a straight word for word transliteration from one language into another and then expecting it to make sense even though the languages have a completely different structure from each other.

To then go on and say one set of symbol correlations is better than another is like saying English is better than Japanese. Neither is better, they are just different.

Also learning to use multiple sets of correspondences before you've even mastered one is like trying to learn more than one language at the same time. It's difficult. ;)
 

ravenest

Ta

Thanks marion, that worked really good.
 

ravenest

Ummmmmmmmm

Aeon418 said:
Er....eh...what?!

What ever you're on, I want some. LOL :D

I'm on the earth. have'nt you got your own bit?
 

Windhorse

Checked the link from my last post, and it worked for me, Aeon....

I think I may have possibly come close to believing that I may have an idea about the slightest possibility that I might have an answer to a possible question.....

...The complete quote from Crowley was "All these old letters of my Book are aright but Tzaddi is not the Star" (Book of the Law I:54)

Now: remembering of course that the Adjustment/Lust swap was to justify the Star/Emperor swap (or was it the other way around...?), then I wonder why the former pair of cards retained their hebrew-letter-order? For then, the order is wrong; and of course, the order of the latter pair of cards is not changed at all, just the letter associations.

So in two places, the Hebrew-letter sequence is altered.

So how could Aiwass/Crowley's assertion that "all these old letters of my Book are aright" when they have been jumbled around in some places?

I feel that the message here was a deliberate red-herring that spoke of other previous red-herrings inherent in the PUBLISHED works of the GD and its members - notably, Waite.

Whilst I await to find further info on the hebrew-letter associations with the Paths, I cannot spell this theory out with any confidence - it is still merely speculation on my behalf.

But as I mentioned in a previous post, I am struck with the profound similarity between the meaning of LAMED and the traditional image of the Strength/Fortitude card.

I know that literal interpretations of symbols can sometimes lead to what in my mind are 'incorrect' correspondences (perhaps simplistic would be a better word to use than 'incorrect'!).
Meaning that just because Lamed is traditionally associated with the astrological sign of Libra, doesn't mean that the use of the symbol of the scales of Justice signify that card's association with Libra, hence Lamed.

The reason given for Lamed's association with Libra is more to do with that sign's being the opposite of Aries, thus in Astrology the duality of the Self (Aries) vs. the Other (Libra). The image of the human taming the beast is given as representing the 7th House Sign.

Given that I am flirting with the idea that the letter correspondences with the cards may be all up the river, then I am willing to admit that Tzaddi may well not be the Star, as was stated (being that this is the subject of this particular thread, and I do wanna try bring it back on track).

I also find it interesting that given the Astrological-Hebrew correspondences, that Aries is involved - being associated with the other problem card in this 'gang of four': the Emperor.

I know my logic seems far-fetched, but I am a student of Semiotics (amongst many things) and this is the kind of twisted, multi-dimensional coding that Umberto Eco loves to write about so much. Case in point, read his novel "Foucault's Pendulum". Its this kind of thinking which makes books like "Da Vinci Code", "Holy Blood & Holy Grail" "Fingerprints of the Gods", etc so enticing to read - the signs that are set to be followed (like treasure maps) are so ingenuous and encourages lateral thinking. Ever played a game called "Monkey Island" or "Myst" - this is the mindset you need to get in to play these games.

...Puzzles, signs, codes, secret treasure...

...this is the stuff of Crowley's work! This is how esoteric groups kept their secrets..., well, esoteric!

Getting back to the point...
...leaving the obvious red-herring leaves the true seeker to ask "why?" And of course, then the seeker starts to hunt for an answer as to why this has been done. Perhaps we have stumbled onto something here......

... or perhaps I am being melodramatic....

LOL
:)
 

Windhorse

addendum to that...

OK reading back over that I realise now that i babbled and didn't make the point I was actually wanting to make.

So here goes..... (forgiveness pleae.... :) )

(Remember also this is merely speculation on my behalf, and requires further investigation and verification on my behalf. Consider this a work-in-progress of a hypothesis)

*Strength/Lust = Lamed = Trump XI
Crowley put it back in its rightful place, after Waite's transposition.

*Justice/Adjustment = Teth = Trump VIII
Crowley put it back in its rightful place, after Waite's transposition.

*But he changes the hebrew-letter association, to conform (publicly at least) the GD/Waite correspondences.

*He claims that "Tzaddi is not the Star", to create the twist on the Pisces axis of the zodiacal belt - this is to mirror the twist around the axis of Virgo which the GD had inadvertantly caused with their association of Justice=Lamed, Strength=Teth.

*Crowley says in 'The Law Is For All' (p.142): "I see no harm in revealing the mystery of Tzaddi to 'the wise'; others will hardly understand my explanations... This last revelation makes our Tarot attributions sublimely, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical."

*Of course, given the law of symmetry, Tzaddi CANNOT be the Star if Lust & Adjustment are the wrong way around themselves. His 'mistake' is nothing other than a clue, a guide, a sign pointing to the 'mistake' that the Golden Dawn made in associating Justice with Libra/Lamed and Strength with Leo/Teth.

Howzat for succinct explanation?

Does it make any sense?

:)