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Kwaw,

I owe you a big apology. The apology is rather involved, so bear with me. It all started with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
For instance, how do you interpret the Tower as Venus?

Mary
. . . to which you replied . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
Very, very briefly, Venus = insatiable desire of the appetitive soul [the ever consuming, all devouring mouth; Pe means 'mouth'].
. . . and yes . . .
Quote:
Also re: mouth, we have to speak in tongues, multiplication of languages, the tower of babble, so in either Eve as Woman fallen or Babylon the Whore we have Venus Natura, in contrast to Mary, New Eve, Venus Urania.
. . . which I was not ignoring, merely pointing at as the primary meaning. But then I went on as if disputing your original contention Venus = Tower = all-devouring mouth, saying:
Quote:
Originally Posted by venicebard
The evidence . . . is that peh stands for the poetic mysteries . . . and as for Hebrew roots, I don't have my peh-cards with me (and have not yet mapped peh-roots, only gathered them), but I would be surprised if it does not back me up in this. Indeed if it fails to (and I shall put it next on my list to map), I shall run, not walk, to this thread and say so, with apologies.
Now it does not turn out that I was wrong about peh mainly meaning the poetic-prophetic mysteries, or at least speech-along-with-breath and root-clusters such as to divide up and distinguished (which would include refinement of speech via dividing it up into its constituent sounds, making one 'distinguished', that is, 'special'.

But there is also another cluster of root-meanings centered around just what you seek in peh, although for me this only relates indirectly to XVI LeMaisonDieu in that bardic O-F-S, standing for increase (spring's vowel and first two tree-months), is 4-8-16: roots pointing to a sexual encounter. But the embarrassing part is that I have indeed pointed to a peh-Venus link myself in the past, based on F-fearn-alder's connexion to both peh and the rune *faihu, Fro's or Freyr's rune, and hence to Friday in that he was god of love as well as of fertility (chief deity in ancient Sweden, appropriately enough).

I've only mapped half of the peh roots so far -- and one main bunching is around its F-fearn aspect (as opposed to P-peith aspect) as first month of spring (fat abundance, spread-scatter, etc.) -- but it is now clear that one bunch of roots celebrates carnal love (spring's specialty): PGL be impure, PUK [U = V as vowel] eye-paint [stibium], PUTh prob. be spread open whence PTh 1. nakednes or pudendum muliebre [Is. 5.17], and the word PLGSh/PYLGSh concubine.

Because one suppresses fearn the alder in placing samekh at its station in [what I take as the original] Qabbalah, I on rare occasions forget to take it into consideration at all, a sort of occasional blind-spot. It's actually, I suppose, an unintentional form of mythological misogyny, in that my mind like most is (in its formation) affected by the prophets' ousting of non-monotheistic things from Judaism, including God's own consort! (I do understand the original reasoning behind this, I think: to emphasize the fundamental Unity . . . which is why the God of Jewish monotheism should be thought of as an It, not a He.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venicebard
Kwaw,

Now it does not turn out that I was wrong about peh mainly meaning the poetic-prophetic mysteries, or at least speech-along-with-breath and root-clusters such as to divide up and distinguished (which would include refinement of speech via dividing it up into its constituent sounds, making one 'distinguished', that is, 'special'.

But there is also another cluster of root-meanings centered around just what you seek in peh, although for me this only relates indirectly to XVI LeMaisonDieu in that bardic O-F-S, standing for increase (spring's vowel and first two tree-months), is 4-8-16: roots pointing to a sexual encounter. But the embarrassing part is that I have indeed pointed to a peh-Venus link myself in the past, based on F-fearn-alder's connexion to both peh and the rune *faihu, Fro's or Freyr's rune, and hence to Friday in that he was god of love as well as of fertility (chief deity in ancient Sweden, appropriately enough).

I've only mapped half of the peh roots so far -- and one main bunching is around its F-fearn aspect (as opposed to P-peith aspect) as first month of spring (fat abundance, spread-scatter, etc.) -- but it is now clear that one bunch of roots celebrates carnal love (spring's specialty): PGL be impure, PUK [U = V as vowel] eye-paint [stibium], PUTh prob. be spread open whence PTh 1. nakednes or pudendum muliebre [Is. 5.17], and the word PLGSh/PYLGSh concubine.
I agree with the connection between Pe and prophesy , and connected such with trump XVI in previous posts, instead of repeat that some of my notes on such can be found here:

http://journals.aol.co.uk/kwaw93/Tar...use-of-god/786

Pe/Fe mouth as connected with the generative or creative word is by analogy [and in Hebrew wordplay] connected to the organ of generation.

The first verse of the first chapter of Sefer Yetzira states that “Yah, the Lord of hosts, carved out thirty-two wondrous paths of wisdom by means of three ‘types of things’ SPRym: by writing SPR, by number SPR, and by speech SPR.

These three ‘types of things’ whose names all share the same three letter roots SPR are also connected to the three groups or threefold division of the Hebrew letters, as the second verse tells us into mothers, doubles and singles (operating in creation throughout the three domains of the world, the year and the soul.)

Tbe SeFiRot, verse three states are ten, like the fingers of the hand, and the BRYT of the YchYD is exactly in the middle in the MYLTh of the tongue and mouth {PH} and the MYLTh of the flesh.

I have left several words untranslated here so as to reference the word play:

BRYT may mean covenant or creation; YchYD is unity; a solitary or unique one (I have used it in the word lists under hermit you may remember as ‘solitary one’; Hayman in relation to this verse has translated it ‘unique one’); so for example we may translate BRYT YChYD as ‘covenant of unity’ or of ‘the Unique One’ or ‘creation of the Unique One’. MYLTh may mean ‘word’ or ‘circumcision’ depending on context [tongue, flesh] thus we have "word of the tongue and mouth and the circumcision of the flesh." The mouth [the letter PH] is of course exactly ‘in the middle’ of the three types of things whose names share the same three root letters sPr.

Kwaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
BRYT may mean covenant or creation; YchYD is unity; a solitary or unique one (I have used it in the word lists under hermit you may remember as ‘solitary one’; Hayman in relation to this verse has translated it ‘unique one’); so for example we may translate BRYT YChYD as ‘covenant of unity’ or of ‘the Unique One’ or ‘creation of the Unique One’. MYLTh may mean ‘word’ or ‘circumcision’ depending on context [tongue, flesh] thus we have "word of the tongue and mouth and the circumcision of the flesh." The mouth [the letter PH] is of course exactly ‘in the middle’ of the three types of things whose names share the same three root letters sPr.
In terms of the wordplay, note also that SPR, as well as being the root of words for teacher [of the torah], letter, document, book [especially holy], text, writing, scribe, number, counting, declare, narrative etc; also means to cut, shear, shave. One may say that this is the core meaning, in that to write or to count is to make a mark, a cut; and that Yah in the SY carves, hewns, engraves.

Ergo, one of the readings of 'He created his universe with three SPRYM: BSPR VSPR VSPR' SPRYM could be three types of cut or things that cut, in context with carving we may just perhaps translate is as three chisels (though I think it is more probably types of cut than things that cut, alternatively it could be read as 'three books'): writing, counting and speech by which Yah carved out thirty-two wondrous paths of wisdom.

It also means a barber, hair-cutter [also scissors, shears]; and anything that has to do with servitors of the body, from barbers to cobblers, head to foot, of course has great symbolic significance. There is virtually a whole book of the zohar describing the hair of the head and beard of G-d; and we have the hair cutting story of Samson and Delilah.

Jastrow uses the example 'is there a man who puts the royal crown on his head without having his hair cut?' which is also a figurative reference to circumcision.

A word for the circumcised glans of the penis is aterah; which also means crown, which we may see referenced in the crown like top of the tower.

Kwaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
Ergo, one of the readings of 'He created his universe with three SPRYM: BSPR VSPR VSPR' SPRYM could be three types of cut or things that cut, in context with carving we may just perhaps translate is as three chisels:

SFR to cut related to English sever? (Etymology dictionary says 'sever' from Middle English severen, from Anglo-Norman severer, from Vulgar Latin seperere, from Latin separere.)

Kwaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
In terms of the wordplay, note also that SPR, as well as being the root of words for teacher [of the torah], letter, document, book [especially holy], text, writing, scribe, number, counting, declare, narrative etc; also means to cut, shear, shave. One may say that this is the core meaning, in that to write or to count is to make a mark, a cut; and that Yah in the SY carves, hewns, engraves.
After noting (in passing) that both ogham and runes are cut and that ogam consaine (w/o vowels) goes back several millenniums, and that letters generally were cut in stone (Egypt, Anatolia, Peterborough [Ca.], north-western Europe, and all parts in between), it is interesting that of the roots beginning in peh about a third -- in the mid-twenties -- are separate, cut, divide, tear, rend, etc., and that in two or three roots (only one beginning with peh) the idea of cutting/dividing is linked to music, the cutting-up of time, and that music is the mainstay of the poet (the 'backdrop' or 'stage' of the voice). And amonst these roots are several that convey 'distinction' as a form of 'separation', as I alluded to before. Add to these two for 'open wide the mouth' and one for mouth as aperture, along with a couple for 'hollow out' or 'dig' and one for 'hide, conceal'. Add to this surprisingly few that relate to speech-and-decree, although these do include the root of the letter's name of course, which definitely evokes the act of blowing out through the mouth and hence of speech -- exemplified by the expression 'mouth to mouth' meaning w/o intervention of anyone.

And another thing: the overwhelming strength amongst the remaining roots -- again nearly a third -- invoke F-alder's position as the first month of spring. Many of the roots I have (admittedly a bit loosely, to include 'redeem' for instance, spring being winter's redemption) ascribed thereto stem from a root meaning of 'to spread or scatter', which is related to the meaning 'cut', and in fact I include PTzCh 'break in pieces' because it has also the meaning 'break forth (into singing, rejoicing)'.

Then there are the roots pointing to carnal things. All in all your peh-Venus connexion is rather strong, I think, albeit I would point to a different trump of course. I think the very strength of the idea 'divide' in peh's roots may either stem from or have contributed to (more likely the former) the splitting of peh between the P-peith-whitten that takes Ng-reed's place in the bethluisnion (probably originally P-Kelt), at the sagittary of the surroundings or Throne world (Cauldron, mouth), and the F-fearn-alder that stands in place of samekh-the-head at the aries of the torso or Yetzirah world (Egg, tongue).

Now it is an interesting thing that ogham has changed (pagan) B-L-N-F-S, the tree-months' original order (provable by phonetics), to (pagan) B-L-F-S-N, placing S at aries where F was, and noting of course that Hebrew has samekh there (I know, SY says heh, based on alef-bet order), absorbing F into peh as feh-sofit. For shin expresses spring vividly as the overflowing fountain of willow-boughs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
The letter Beit is formed of the white space inside the letter Pe; the mouth, in which the tongue is housed. The tongue is an organ of taste, and also part in the processing of food as well as one of articulation.
By the way, you are right of course about beyt's meaning 'within' and a hollow and so on, beyt by itself of course being the preposition 'in, within'. This 'within' is both dwelling and concealment but not (and I'm just starting to 'parse' beyt) an aperture into the digestive system, things below, but into what stands behind speech. In other words: things are contained/concealed in/by beyt, not simply passing through to other (nether) regions.

Beyt's 'in'-ness in relation to peh stems from its being peh's voiced equivalent and therefore straight back-or-in from peh's original station on the outer lip of the Cauldron (outer horizon), being its inner lip (man's inner horizon). And it is what is concealed when one holds one's tongue, that is, beyt is in this sense the mouth minus the tongue (its housing without it). And it is also that out of which the tongue springs into speech.

So I concede half of this point to you as well. (Are we slow-dancing or what!)
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How about VeniceBard, you list your 22 Trumps against the Hebrew alphabet with their planetary, Zodiac, elements, in the order you think is the correct one?
Then I can compare and have something to see your debate against. It is hard to correlate all your posts into a list. I am never sure quite how you see it. If you can be bothered that is I am happy to see the Ogham in there as well!
~Rosanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
How about VeniceBard, you list your 22 Trumps against the Hebrew alphabet with their planetary, Zodiac, elements, in the order you think is the correct one?
~Rosanne
Must admit I am somewhat confused and would find this useful as well. VB I think agrees with Filipas attributions, but then his death list seemed to correlate more with nun instead of mem. Of course there is no reason why VBs should match with Marks or my own, in fact VB's seems to demonstrate a third lot of attributions [and of course another set of attributions, rather that one that agreed with my own or Marks, would in fact be in line with the points I have tried to make].

Kwaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
How about VeniceBard, you list your 22 Trumps against the Hebrew alphabet with their planetary, Zodiac, elements, in the order you think is the correct one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
Must admit I am somewhat confused and would find this useful as well. VB I think agrees with Filipas attributions, but then his death list seemed to correlate more with nun instead of mem.
Happy to oblige. I have only said that Mark Filipas's arrangement is the most logical side-by-side allocation, and therefore that it formed a sort of 'surface veneer' beyond which the curious might not peruse, making the secret 'safe' (though it was lost because of too much secrecy and had to be rediscovered).

Mine is based on the numbers given tree-letters in 'medieval Irish literature', according to Robert Graves's The White Goddess (pp. 295f), confirmed to have been in use also in Wales by one un-skewed and other only partly-skewed listings of letter-order in that controversial work The Barddas of Iolo Morganwg. They only go from 0 ('no number') to 16, but the rest are easily recoverable: V/U is fifth-to-last (being Roman numeral 5, and since 1-4 being AEIO points to U being next but its place is taken by B [that is, U-summer got pregnant, B being birth, the first tree-month]); Ii is third-to-last (being doubled I, I=3); Aa is first-from-the-end (being doubled A, A=1); Kk/Q is doubled K (K=9) hence 18; this leaves Ss (doubled S) to be XX Judgment (which fits, as do the rest, like a glove). And remember, of course, that I go by Marseilles order (and design, for that matter, but that's another issue).

It must also be borne in mind that tree-calendar order (to which ogham closely conforms) dictates different placement of the 12 simples, their new placement being confirmed by the shapes: samekh is head-shaped (aries), cheyt is shaped like shoulders-and-arms (gemini), and so on.

Also, the doubles occupy signs themselves, only on the Cauldron of surroundings: Cauldron forms the mouth (facing up), the round in it the tongue (whose bottom half is the tongue-root). All this results from their placement in the tree-calendar, modified by the stipulations of Sefer Yetzirah. This allows the simples corresponding to bardic vowels to occupy the underside (tongue-root) of the wheel of signs (the tongue), where the Hebrew doubles are in the tree-calendar, with only one vowel-equivalent being out of place, namely ayin-O, vowel of spring, the only season not on its underside, which it still manages to rule via mercury's volatile vapors taking over the upper half of the outer vessel (round of signs) via its number (8, which is bardic F or aries and Hebrew cheyt or gemini), which is spring (but that's another story). Vowel-equivalents are of course interrupted at virgo by qof, man's 'pit-stop' in the womb (just before libra or physical existence, on the bottom of the round).

Elemental allocations of SY are only part of the picture concerning elements, but I will not complicate things by going into that here but will simply list them as SY has them (plus the Kabbalistic world of which each forms the center).

Finally, planetary attributions I cannot give definitively: I have a theory or two, but I am not completely convinced that planetary attributions for the 7 doubles is not itself a further 'blind', in that the planets' more proper placement is as rounds or cycles of the Tree in Asiyah (suit of Coins or rounds): Saturn-3, Jupiter-4, Mars-5, Venus-7, Mercury-8, Luna-9, and Sol-2-6-10 (great year, year, and day).

The upshot is:

H Fool cheyt gemini
A I Magician alef ('air') -- Yetzirah world
E II Priestess heh scorpio
I III Empress zayin sagittary
O IIII Emperor ayin leo
B V Pope beyt capricorn-of-Cauldron (horizon within)
M VI Lover (no s) mem ('water') -- Atzilut world
P VII Chariot peh sagittary-of-Cauldron
F VIII Justice samekh aries (F was pagan substitute, as Corn Spirit sprouting beyond tip [top] of tongue [round of signs], samekh being on the tongue-tip)
K VIIII Hermit kaf virgo-of-Cauldron
G X Fortune gimel scorpio-of-Cauldron
T XI Force tav leo-of-Cauldron
D XII Hanged Man dalet cancer-of-Cauldron (horizon without)
N XIII nun pisces
L XIIII Temperance lamedh aquarius
R XV Devil reysh libra-of-Cauldron
S XVI Tower shin ('fire') -- Beriyah (Throne) world
U XVII Star vav cancer
Kk/Q XVIII Moon qof virgo
Ii XVIIII Sun yod capricorn
Ss XX Judgement tzaddi taurus
Aa XXI World teyt libra (a consonant in all alphabets but Keltic)

Note that the Fool, meaning empty space, is the sign (gemini) immediately above the outer horizon (cancer), which is where space is, and that R's place at libra of the Cauldron is taken in the tree-calendar by M-mem-muin-vine, making the original sequence of numbers for the Cauldron (returning to the higher mem, mem-sofit, after having made use of lower or intermediate mem already): 12-11-9-6-10-7-5-6, whose differences are 1-2-3-4-3-2-1, thus assigning elements to levels (horizontals) in natural descending order (libra being earth). But elements and triads and so on are a complex issue, not the simple (but illogical) matter astrology alone (meaning in a vacuum) makes them out to be.
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Here, in case it will be helpful, is a listing of them in the order in which they occur on the round, Cauldron, and as worlds when ascending via the Logos, AUM, which is eagle-chick-owl in Egyptian, shin being substituted for the U as a blind (to shush it) in Semitic and elsewhere, the U/O later making its reappearance as Greek omega:

F VIII Justice samekh aries (F was pagan substitute, as Corn Spirit sprouting beyond tip [top] of tongue [round of signs], samekh being on the tongue-tip)
Ss XX Judgement tzaddi taurus
H Fool cheyt gemini
U XVII Star vav cancer
O IIII Emperor ayin leo
Kk/Q XVIII Moon qof virgo
Aa XXI World teyt libra (a consonant in all alphabets but Keltic)
E II Priestess heh scorpio
I III Empress zayin sagittary
Ii XVIIII Sun yod capricorn
L XIIII Temperance lamedh aquarius
N XIII nun pisces

D XII Hanged Man dalet cancer-of-Cauldron (horizon without)
T XI Force tav leo-of-Cauldron
K VIIII Hermit kaf virgo-of-Cauldron
R XV Devil reysh libra-of-Cauldron
G X Fortune gimel scorpio-of-Cauldron
P VII Chariot peh sagittary-of-Cauldron
B V Pope beyt capricorn-of-Cauldron (horizon within)

A I Magician alef ('air') -- Yetzirah world
S XVI Tower shin ('fire') -- Beriyah (Throne) world
M VI Lover (no s) mem ('water') -- Atzilut world

Yeah, even I like that better!
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