The Cary-Yale Visconti

kwaw

Warrior Woman

kwaw said:
The equality of woman, especially as warriors or guardians of the 'ideal' city, may also reference Plato's Republic.

Kwaw

According to wikipedia entry:

"In May of 1448, when Sforza was in Pavia, the Venetians attacked Cremona. According to the chronicles, Bianca donned a suit of parade armor and, along with some troops and the populace, hurried towards the bridge that connected the city to Pavia. She fought in the battle that ensued for the whole day. This episode gained her fame as a "warrior woman".

Kwaw
 

Huck

kwaw said:
According to wikipedia entry:

"In May of 1448, when Sforza was in Pavia, the Venetians attacked Cremona. According to the chronicles, Bianca donned a suit of parade armor and, along with some troops and the populace, hurried towards the bridge that connected the city to Pavia. She fought in the battle that ensued for the whole day. This episode gained her fame as a "warrior woman".

Kwaw

Yes, that's an old story. Perhaps it's true and perhaps she even killed a man, as it is told. But naturally these stories about famous men and women are not always true, the natural result, when intellectuals have to earn their money by talking good about the sponsor.
 

kwaw

Huck said:
Yes, that's an old story. Perhaps it's true and perhaps she even killed a man, as it is told. But naturally these stories about famous men and women are not always true, the natural result, when intellectuals have to earn their money by talking good about the sponsor.

The Fama of one's patron is part of one's duty as a 'humanist' autor of the court. And the deck itself promotes and glorifies its sponsor, with its emblems and devices and adornment of mottoes proclaiming their legitimate rights. It is propagandal art, making full use of the promotional repetoire developed by the publicists of the Milanese court (of which Plato was an element).

Kwaw
 

Huck

Yes, that's nice. I wasn't aware, that the Republic has so many educational aspects.

Would be nice to know also better dates for the activities ... when Decembrio precisely completed the translation of his father. Did this influence Ferrara and the court of Mantua, then both known for their new educative methodes? With Guarino and Vittorio d Feltre?

The first translation was 1400 - 1403 ... precisely in the time, when Giangaleazzo had education problems, his two boys were in the right age for that. And it is said: he was not satisfied with the learning of his oldest son, but with that of Filippo, and he pointed out, that he couldn't understand, why always the oldest son should get throne and title, when in other situations of life always ability and learning are requested.
This may be a legend ... but it sounds a little bit like Plato's Republic or as if Giangaleazzo had read the Republik or that Filippo would have loved, that his father had said that.

Did Guarino or Vittoro da Feltre read the Republik? Interesting question.

Learning through playing ... in the concrete context it sounds. as if this idea might have lead to the production of the Trionfi cards and that the basic idea was educative ... Trionfi decks, as far we know them, were presents for young girls, which marry ... although then often only 14, 16 years old, they were surely educated enough to know, that there was a pope, an emperor etc..
So the decks were - probably - thought as an educative tool for the mother in spe.

Already Parisina bought in 1424 playing cards for her very young kids ... actually it didn't need platon to learn that trick.
 

kwaw

Uhm..the post to which Huck replied, originally post 84, has disappeared?

I think you underestimate Huck [that there is an emperor, a pope] the educational potential of the series. Also Pier Decembrio did not complete the translation of his father, his fathers was a finished product widespread and well known, Piers was a new translation although probably he also used his fathers as aid in translation.

Piers brother Angelo was 'one of the major humanists of the Leonello court', he is known to have been at the court from c. 1430/32 to 1438. Though Pier and Angelo, according to Hankin, were estranged (Anglelo's copy of Pier's Republic has derogaroty remarks damaging to Pier in the margins). Pier himself was a diplomatic guest at the court in Ferrara for six months or more in 1447. I think it very likely that Pier's works, including his translation of Plato, were well known in the humanist court of Ferrara.

Kwaw
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
Uhm..the post to which Huck replied, originally post 84, has disappeared? I have pm'd moderator JMD.

It's a good thing I printed it out then. Thanks for posting it with the links.

I think you underestimate Huck [that there is an emperor, a pope] the educational potential of the series. Also Pier Decembrio did not complete the translation of his father, his fathers was a finished product widespread and well known, Piers was a new translation although probably he also used his fathers as aid in translation.

Kwaw

I astounded at how closely yours and Huck's ideas have come to my own recent thinking, which I have avoided mentioning directly because I'm trying to finish writing it! I have certainly underestimated the influence of Plato's Republic in humanist paedigogical theory at precisely this time, which I will gratefully acknowledge kwaw (Stephen) for bringing to my attention; but he is not the only classical source whose ideas of play influenced the humanist educational model.

Aristotle in the Ethics IV.8
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.4.iv.html
already informed Aquinas' discussion of the value of games and diversions for forming good morals in recreation, in the Summa II/II question 168 article 2,
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3168.htm
who additionally pulls relevant examples from Cicero and the Fathers. All of this is implicit and sometimes explicit in early humanist educational programmes.

So, we have what I think is the reason for tarot's invention; but why those subjects, and why this order? (general or specific). And by and for whom? And lastly - how does the name "trionfi" relate to an educational programme?

Obviously we don't have exact answers for those questions, but how close can we come?
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
Piers brother Angelo was 'one of the major humanists of the Leonello court', he is known to have been at the court from c. 1430/32 to 1438. Pier himself was a diplomatic guest at the court in Ferrara for six months or more in 1447. I think it very likely that Pier's works, including his translation of Plato, were well known in the humanist court of Ferrara.

Kwaw

My main source about Decembrio is Mario Borsa, "Pier Candido Decembri e l'umanesimo in Lombardia" (Archivio Storico Lombardo, ser. 2, vol. X (1893) pp. 5-75 and pp. 358-441).

Borsa notes concerning Decembrio's Greek translations that he had a mediocre knowledge of Greek. His translation of the Republic took three years, beginning in 1438. First book V, finished in 1439 and sent to the Duke of Gloucester (and copied for others as well), then I, II, X and VI. Finally the rest was finished by 1440. Various humanists, Leonello d'Este, and King Giovanni II di Castiglia (John II of Castille), requested copies of each book as soon as each were finished. In 1441, Filippo Maria Visconti's orator Scaramuccio Balbo went to England to deliver a complete copy to the Duke of Gloucester.

Guarino judged the work to be a pure recreation of the Uberto and Chrysoloras version (of which some people had corrupt copies).

In any case, it is clear it was widely read and appreciated across Europe.
 

Huck

kwaw said:
Uhm..the post to which Huck replied, originally post 84, has disappeared? I have pm'd moderator JMD.

I think you underestimate Huck [that there is an emperor, a pope] the educational potential of the series. Also Pier Decembrio did not complete the translation of his father, his fathers was a finished product widespread and well known, Piers was a new translation although probably he also used his fathers as aid in translation.

Kwaw

Yes, the post has disappeared, which would be a pity, cause it contained worthful information.

Well, we've the time, when soon the education of very young talented children was taken rather serious. Examples are Galeazzo Maria, Marcello's son Valerio, who died young (both in the 50's), Pico de Mirandola (in the 60's). The dream of the wonder children.

Why do you think, that I underestimate the educational value?

... We don't know, what the real concept and content of the Cary-Yale was. We only know of 11 trumps. So a judgment is difficult, anyway.
The pictures itself are not a great riddle, interesting would have been the teachings, which were associated to the figures. But these more complex argumentation was not in the deck - either it was given by a tutor ... or even explicitly by an accompanying book or text directly produced for the deck ... as we see it by the work of Marziano da Tortona, who described the Michelino deck. We know this text and we realize, that it is not a long text. And we know, that the price for this production was exorbitantly high ... so one may conclude, that surely not all Trionfi deck versions were accompanied by a text ... but it happened, we've examples.
When we take Lazzarelli's work, we see a text accompanied by pictures. Perhaps the pictures were modeled to become later part of a playing card deck, but we don't know of any production. We think, that Lazzarelli's work happened before the production of the Mantegna series, other see, that Lazzarelli only took pictures of the already existent series. Maybe that, as it is, in this case it's recognizable, that the whole aims at higher education.

In the echecs amoureux, earlier than the Michelino deck, we've a complex encyclopedia, a very long text, not comparable to Martiano's short treatise ... and some pictures connected to it in later editions, partly with similarities to the Mantegna Tarocchi. In this case it's very clear a picture-context-connection in a great educational enterprize.

So we've examples, that picture-series and great educational context did unite ... but can we be sure, that it was always so ..? Generally it seems, that card-playing at the courts was minor playing, the higher art was connected to chess and other more expensive enjoyment, as we see it at the court of Galeazzo Maria: tennis, jousts, an own music chapel with 22 members and some of the most talented musicians of the time between them. This were really expensive hobbies and things like playing cards were minor occupations, much cheaper and good enough for women and children.

So ... the original context were women and children world, a "higher educational context" should be somewhere in the background, but not dominant.
Let's look on Filippo Maria's playing world: He played with cards in his youth (so says Decembrio, who was to young to observe it) .... okay, this should have happened with decks, which we don't know. In ca. 1425 he produced the Michelino deck ... so he had a proven great interest in cards, right?

But accidently Filippo Maria was 33 years then, a little too old for cards. But in this year he got a daughter and likely the Trionfi festivities in June 1425 were likely mainly done to celebrate this circumstance (other first-child-celebrations in the Italian nobility of 15th century are known, usually for the male heir). And he produced a deck, the Michelino deck ... likely to educate the girl in that, what was just in vogue as an educational context, and that was Greek-Roman mythology.

And he made the Cary-Yale ... for the marriage of that same girl Bianca-Maria, now 16 years old.

And he played cards with Alfonso of Aragon 1435, so it is noted ... well, the situation should have been interesting, Alfonso likely new Spanish rules, so card playing could fascinate for the moment.

The playing truth of Filippo Maria Visconti is, that he had an own chess club at his court, as it is noted for 1427 and 1429.

And his colleague in Ferrara, Niccolo d'Este, is noted as a chess-player with some skill, but when it comes to cards, so usually a female participant is noted, mostly Parisina. Well, in that we talk of Ferrara, the court with the most old Trionfi notes, that we know of.

In Savoy 1430 - not far away to Milan and related to Milan, as Filippo's wife was from Savoy - card playing was prohibited for men, with the exception, that they were allowed to play with women.

... :) well, the last sentence should be read twice.

The conditions are natural ... women don't find usually so much concentration and engagement for complex games ... they've other strong sides. Talking with the other wifes and getting a lot of other informations, which men actually believe to be general rubbish, for instance.

Go in a chess club, and you'll find usually many men. Go in a bridge club and you find many women.

Realize that, and you understand the Savoian law of 1430.
 

kwaw

Huck said:
Why do you think, that I underestimate the educational value?

Your statement Huck that at "14, 16 years old, they were surely educated enough to know, that there was a pope, an emperor etc.." which seems to me, to minimise or trivialise the potential educational content, which if such is intended must surely go beyond the facts that there is a pope, an emperor, etc. My apologies if I misunderstood you.

If such is designed as reflecting a humanist programme of education, which at the time was thought most suitable for leaders of society and those who were to have civic responsibilities, it is worth perhaps to note that such an education did not usually include theology or philosophy, with the exception that is of moral philosophy. I think it is moral philosphy, particularly as it applies to civic duties and the establishment of the 'good' or an ideal state [according to whatever ideal that may be, which may vary say from Milan, Florence or Venice], which may be traced within the subjects of the early painted cards. The propagandal element also promotes in the young and potential future leaders, a sense of their legitimate rights, but also the subject is the responsibilities and duties that go with their rights and their position. That is not to say there would be no religious content, but that such would be that which pertains to questions of morality; for example a question such as why do the wicked prosper and the virtuous suffer? Perhaps part of the answer to that lies in the religious, platonic and christian belief, that virtue prospers the soul, that shall receive a final judgement after death or in the world to come.

Kwaw