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Crowley's Devil

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Crowley's Devil


Does someone see Thoth devil as a blind addiction towards something where you completely lose your mind to that thing to the point of obsession, insanity. I get such a feeling when drawing this card. Is it correct to interpret it that way?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melynasaule View Post
Does someone see Thoth devil as a blind addiction towards something where you completely lose your mind to that thing to the point of obsession, insanity. I get such a feeling when drawing this card. Is it correct to interpret it that way?
Like the way I buy tarot decks by the dozens? Yes, you are totally right
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While there may be no "wrong" way to interpret any card, some ways may be more correct than others. The Thoth is not the RWS, and does not share its worldview. The whole chains and addiction thing is present in any Devil, to be sure, but in varying degrees and no card is all bad.

The title of the Devil is the Lord of the Gates of matter, that is, he rules over all that is actual and firm, existence itself. In Waite's Christian and rather prudish interpretation this would mean negative associations, because that's how Christianity rolls. But the Thoth Devil is of a different sort, proclaiming that the material is every bit as spiritual as the astral, when utilized correctly. This can, of course, get out of hand and from there we get all the negative connotations of the card but they are not inherent to it. He represents creative urge in its most unfiltered form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Book of Thoth
On the Tree of Life, Atu XIII and XV are symmetrically placed; they lead from Tiphareth, the human consciousness, to the spheres in which Thought (on the one hand) and Bliss (on the other) are developed. Between them, Atu XIV leads similarly to the sphere which formulates Existence. (See note on Atu X and arrangement.) These three cards may therefore be summed up as a hieroglyph of the processes by which idea manifests as form.

This card represents creative energy in its most material form; in the Zodiac, Capricornus occupies the Zenith. It is the most exalted of the signs; it is the goat leaping with lust upon the summits of earth. The sign is ruled by Saturn, who makes for selfhood and perpetuity. In this sign, Mars is exalted, showing in its best form the fiery, material energy of creation. The card represents Pan Pangenetor, the All-Begetter. It is the Tree of Life as seen against a background of the exquisitely tenuous, complex, and fantastic forms of madness, the divine madness of spring, already foreseen in the meditative madness of winter; for the Sun turns northwards on entering this sign.

The roots of the Tree are made transparent, in order to show the innumerable leapings of the sap; before it stands the Himalayan goat, with an eye in the centre of his forehead, representing the god Pan upon the highest and most secret mountains of the earth. His creative energy is veiled in the symbol of the Wand of the Chief Adept, crowned with the winged globe and the twin serpents of Horus and Osiris.

* * *

The sign of Capricornus is rough, harsh, dark, even blind; the impulse to create takes no account of reason, custom, or foresight. It is divinely unscrupulous, sublimely careless of result.

“thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.” AL. I, 42-4.

* * *

The formula of this card is then the complete appreciation of all existing things. He rejoices in the rugged and the barren no less than in the smooth and the fertile. All things equally exalt him. He represents the finding of ecstasy in every phenomenon, however naturally repugnant; he transcends all limitations; he is Pan; he is All.

* * *

In every symbol of this card there is the allusion to the highest things and most remote. Even the horns of the goat are spiral, to represent the movement of the all-pervading energy. Zoroaster defines God as “having a spiral force”.
So basically, opposite Death, the Devil is the card of Life.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyros View Post
While there may be no "wrong" way to interpret any card, some ways may be more correct than others. The Thoth is not the RWS, and does not share its worldview. The whole chains and addiction thing is present in any Devil, to be sure, but in varying degrees and no card is all bad.

The title of the Devil is the Lord of the Gates of matter, that is, he rules over all that is actual and firm, existence itself. In Waite's Christian and rather prudish interpretation this would mean negative associations, because that's how Christianity rolls. But the Thoth Devil is of a different sort, proclaiming that the material is every bit as spiritual as the astral, when utilized correctly. This can, of course, get out of hand and from there we get all the negative connotations of the card but they are not inherent to it. He represents creative urge in its most unfiltered form.



So basically, opposite Death, the Devil is the card of Life.
Thank you- it's nice that Aleister didn't make that card "sinful". On the other hand I think our addictions sometimes can make us creative- like obsession over, for example, a person, can highly inspire an artist and make him create masterpiece.

P.S. It's so nice to see moderator responding, not only moving the topic or something like this
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Like planets exalted or fell in the houses, it would depend on how it is situated with other cards in the spread, I would suppose.

For instance, the Devil surrounded by any of the 3, 5, 8, 9, 10 of swords followed by the Death cards, looks dark, negative and hopeless. It could mean blind addiction, insanity and obsession which will result in bad situation or end.

The Devil surrounded by the 2 or 3 Cups followed by the Lust, Empress or 10 of Disks could imply having fun with positive energy and outcome.
Top   #5
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To me the card depicts the sex act. I see an erect phallus penetrating a ring. None of this looks negative to me here.
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Whatever is getting represented by this card is not necessarily all negative, but it always has a definite difficult side to it. Fun combined with pain, sometimes (some will enjoy this, to be sure).
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I find Thoth Devil totally different interpretation than RWS Devil for reasons other posters have touched upon. How did this pan-out in real life? (excuse the pun).
Devil Card of Thoth deck was the outcome when I threw cards after first meeting the man who became my ex-husband }:>
Both CAPRICORNS. Tremendous creativity. We did wonderful work together and both grew exponentially as artists from our collaboration. In the end, sexual addiction issues ended the marriage. It was 14 years of love, inspiration, fighting, saturn, capricorn, music, dance, parties, performing, jealousy, control issues, and finally an inability to transcend habituated patterns making the whole thing crash and burn in a loving hating chaotic wreck. So yes, this card carries references to addiction ... but NOT the same way RWS does. I think if I had got RWS Devil card I might have walked away from the relationship! The Thoth Devil is a POSITIVE card ... but not an easy or comfortable one. Thoth Devil has incredible creative and artistic potential which is missing from RWS Devil. It makes sense that Devil comes after Art in this deck. Whole different progression than Temperance to Devil in RWS ... and a profoundly valuable difference to any working artist/musician/dancer to have these cards of Thoth deck imo.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NatKat View Post
Both CAPRICORNS. Tremendous creativity. We did wonderful work together and both grew exponentially as artists from our collaboration. In the end, sexual addiction issues ended the marriage. It was 14 years of love, inspiration, fighting, saturn, capricorn, music, dance, parties, performing, jealousy, control issues, and finally an inability to transcend habituated patterns making the whole thing crash and burn in a loving hating chaotic wreck. So yes, this card carries references to addiction ... but NOT the same way RWS does. I think if I had got RWS Devil card I might have walked away from the relationship! The Thoth Devil is a POSITIVE card ... but not an easy or comfortable one. Thoth Devil has incredible creative and artistic potential which is missing from RWS Devil
Thanks for sharing your personal experiences relating to the Thoth Devil. I felt a sense of the creativity and energy you talk about which as you say seems to be a positive in this card. I hope you don't mind me saying, I thought you seem to have accepted or integrated the whole range of things, positive and negative that came with your experiences. It reminded me a little of the quote (already bolded by Zephyros) from the BOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
All things equally exalt him. He represents the finding of ecstasy in every phenomenon, however naturally repugnant; he transcends all limitations; he is Pan; he is All

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melynasaule
Does someone see Thoth devil as a blind addiction towards something where you completely lose your mind to that thing to the point of obsession, insanity. I get such a feeling when drawing this card. Is it correct to interpret it that way?
I might wonder about these elements if the 10 of cups showed up with the Devil. Duquette's reference to Crowley and Harris' correspondence, has always stuck in my head.

Quote:
There is something very sinister about this card. It suggests the morbid hunger which springs from surfeit. The craving of a drug addict is the idea. At the same time, of course, it is this final agony of descent into illusion which renders necessary the completion of the circle by awakening the Eld of the All-Father
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I agree. The Devil card itself has no good or evil / negative or positive attributions on their own. These qualities only emerge when it is viewed with other cards, position it is taking in the spread and also question asked. The emerged qualities are subjective not universal or objective.

I was looking at both RWS and Thoth Devil cards yesterday, and felt they radiate much different energies and messages from each other. On their own, I find the Thoth Devil more revealing, realistic and deeper. Of course this just my personal feeling from the cards without trying to make judgement whether they are good or evil, and positive or negative. But then RWS deck is a product of hide and seek effort by Waites, I read from somewhere.

Some say that RWS is very much Christian due to Waites background, but I am not so sure if he was a genuine Christian himself when it wrote much about the Black Magic stuff.
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