Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Forum

Crowley's Devil

  > Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Thoth Tarot


 
smw's Avatar
smw  smw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Sep 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 623
smw 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
This part I am not sure. I have not been reading Tarot for a year due to work traveling about here and there. I feel my mind is blank in these topics, and there are a lot of parts I have not read yet, maybe I could go back to the reading & studying now.
I don’t know much about it either. I read that in Crowley’s Magick in Theory and Practice. That bit at the end of waiting patiently…In his fiction story Moonchild I had thought that a character that meeting a grisly end was Mathers but that may have been SMRD. The story seems to have a cast of Golden Dawn characters also portrayed as a Black Magick lodge from Crowley’s perspective at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I think demons are everywhere around us, sometimes even we, ourselves are one, or even your closest friend, family ..... the world, but we don't see them. Thoth deck is a great tool to let us know the presence of demons around us when we use it.
Demons? everywhere? maybe I think though for me either a psychological or external reality works, somehow…

Crowley does mention a Demon, Chorozon numbered 333 (feminine?) in his Vision and the Voice, described as dispersion. Which is interesting as it could mean, breaking up, fragmenting or light being split into different components. Similarly, like aspects of your own personality that might be split off, out of awareness, so able to act almost autonomously. Dissociated parts that can run amok… without you knowing. Little Goblins that you can’t exorcise, because they need to be integrated rather that got rid off, perhaps. Ravenest’s link I think for me relates to this.

So as you say, I guess if you liken these to demons they can be us, or rather hidden aspects. Which can also be projected out on to the big scapegoat- the Thoth Devil or other people. (I wouldn't rule out though autonomous beings or aspect fragments not being part of ourselves. We are beings and there are other ones that are not us).

Chorozon also seems to be mentioned as the ‘Lord of Hallucinations’. I have been looking at Liber777 to see if there are any Thoth card attributions as they have titles like Lord of.. I couldn’t see anything. Maybe it is related just to the hidden Da’aath sephira at the Abyss or paralleled lower at Yesod. This sphere on the tree also seems to be a bridge or a crossing from material to planes, with the Moon (feminine) symbol and the Moon card on a nearby path. That’s a bit of a stretch although this card does have awful illusions too.

Dispersion also could suggest dispersing, as in seeding, with an initiatory feel, The Moon card seems to have awful illusions and dark night of the soul themes, a forerunner of crossing the Abyss higher up.

Please excuse my rambling.. I had all ready written a reply, fairly lengthy and then must have got timed out as I had to sign in again and lost it)
Top   #21
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
I don’t know much about it either. I read that in Crowley’s Magick in Theory and Practice. That bit at the end of waiting patiently…In his fiction story Moonchild I had thought that a character that meeting a grisly end was Mathers but that may have been SMRD. The story seems to have a cast of Golden Dawn characters also portrayed as a Black Magick lodge from Crowley’s perspective at least.

Another interesting book to add in the reading list. It was freely downloadable so I did
Relationship between AC and SMRD, and all the early GD members leaders seem quite interesting topic itself, which would help in the study of Thoth. I gather there are books just focusing on these subjects. I have a couple written by F. King, which I haven't read yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Demons? everywhere? maybe I think though for me either a psychological or external reality works, somehow…
Yup, it depends on how one views the world, i.e. materialistic, idealistic, agnostic, spiritual ...etc. But the demons, yeah I believe they are there in various different forms, within me, around me and in the world.

Sometimes, I perceive Time as demon, because it is out of our control. It drags us to the future whether we like it or not, it brings all the changes whether we like it or not ... in the end, it kills people - everyone, and yet at times we miss the past times reflecting the sweet parts. Time is one of the most powerful demon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Crowley does mention a Demon, Chorozon numbered 333 (feminine?) in his Vision and the Voice, described as dispersion. Which is interesting as it could mean, breaking up, fragmenting or light being split into different components. Similarly, like aspects of your own personality that might be split off, out of awareness, so able to act almost autonomously. Dissociated parts that can run amok… without you knowing. Little Goblins that you can’t exorcise, because they need to be integrated rather that got rid off, perhaps. Ravenest’s link I think for me relates to this.

So as you say, I guess if you liken these to demons they can be us, or rather hidden aspects. Which can also be projected out on to the big scapegoat- the Thoth Devil or other people. (I wouldn't rule out though autonomous beings or aspect fragments not being part of ourselves. We are beings and there are other ones that are not us).

Chorozon also seems to be mentioned as the ‘Lord of Hallucinations’. I have been looking at Liber777 to see if there are any Thoth card attributions as they have titles like Lord of.. I couldn’t see anything. Maybe it is related just to the hidden Da’aath sephira at the Abyss or paralleled lower at Yesod. This sphere on the tree also seems to be a bridge or a crossing from material to planes, with the Moon (feminine) symbol and the Moon card on a nearby path. That’s a bit of a stretch although this card does have awful illusions too.

Dispersion also could suggest dispersing, as in seeding, with an initiatory feel, The Moon card seems to have awful illusions and dark night of the soul themes, a forerunner of crossing the Abyss higher up.

Please excuse my rambling.. I had all ready written a reply, fairly lengthy and then must have got timed out as I had to sign in again and lost it)
A great post. As I have not read any of "TVAV" of AC yet, I cannot add anything here, but certainly very interesting, and thought provoking. I will come back on this later after I get hold of the book and do some studies.

Meanwhile "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will."
93
Top   #22
ravenest's Avatar
ravenest  ravenest is offline
ravenator
 
Join Date: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 13,835
ravenest 

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Well, I'm not as smart as some. When I read something (especially concerning something like the complex nature of Archetypes) I'm not quick enough to take it all in at once and start critiquing as I go along.
neither am I ... my criticism s of parts of Jung have only developed after years of some reading of other sources. This is my opinion and not some comment about you or your view on the article. I put it up because I agree with it generally. Not to demonstrate any one's 'quickness' in comprehension or judgment of it.

I didnt outline them here as it's long and complex, and would need a whole lot of references to other works and I myself get asked , "Who are you to critice Jung? " Even in that case , pointing out that I see Jung as wrong or mistaken on some points, didnt go down too well.

Its not a comment about your comprehension, its a comment about what I felt about it, and I know full well, many 'experts' and professionals would have made the same comment you did. I would have previously myself as well.

Same with my view on Harpur, his is is closer view IMO, yet recently , after a couple of years of looking at material RELATED to his work, my view has changed on some of his basic concepts but his general theory of mythology and soul is brilliant.

I wasnt trying to detract from the general nature of the link though , thats the reason I posted it.

"We are all possessed " ... sometimes 'we' act in strange and inexplicable ways. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
I skim read it and I thought there were some interesting ideas there
There is . Thats why I put the link up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
and was just about to just settle down to read it more carefully, to think about what was suggested, how Jung was interpreted, checking if possible with Jung' own writing, did it make sense in my own understanding etc, so would have taken some time.

On that I think I will bow out and leave you to your Kingly thoughts.

I think you took that the wrong way somehow .

Its a self referential thing; one ( 'whoever' one considers to be 'one' , the 'central / controlling aspect' of the multi faceted self ) needs to take a position internally of authority or 'self-regulation' .

My kingship only rules over my internal kingdom ... no one else's.

I am not sure why you seem to object to this, or feel I have slapped you in the face.

Just see it as me saying ' Jung and this article bring up an interesting point, although I dont entirely agree with all of the details.

And ' 'aspects of the psyche need a central controlling aspect to keep order in the internal kingdom '

I may at times be obscure, one can always just ask 'What do you mean?" instead of taking it as some type of personal attack.
Top   #23
ravenest's Avatar
ravenest  ravenest is offline
ravenator
 
Join Date: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 13,835
ravenest 

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post

Demons? everywhere? maybe I think though for me either a psychological or external reality works, somehow…

Crowley does mention a Demon, Chorozon numbered 333 (feminine?) in his Vision and the Voice, described as dispersion. Which is interesting as it could mean, breaking up, fragmenting or light being split into different components. Similarly, like aspects of your own personality that might be split off, out of awareness, so able to act almost autonomously.
I agree, that seems exactly what it is, hence my comments about 'integration' and one becoming the 'king' of ones own domain, this is what the 'magic crown' represents.

Functioning parts of us (with various degrees of autonomy ) become 'dissociated' and seek identity. In a way, it is a bit like when an individual feels disassociated from society; they can go into a depressed funk, or actually start anti-social behaviour and become a disruptive element.

Maybe, Choronzon, being the 'demon of dispersion' is the 'basic force' behind these 'lesser manifestation' ?

Also, residing in the 'abyss' , his station is between where things form ( energy coming from the Supernal Triad into a more 'real' form and energy dissolving 'up' into the 'ideal forms' as it goes up the Tree from more more material forms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post

Dissociated parts that can run amok… without you knowing. Little Goblins that you can’t exorcise, because they need to be integrated rather that got rid off, perhaps. Ravenest’s link I think for me relates to this.
You bought up a very valid point ! Integration. Crowley talks about the first practice being a 'banishing' the second and more advanced is an integration, a balanced absorption of opposites. Many beginners start magic with a circle and banishing ritual, threatening or unbalanced energies are pushed out and one remains in a safe bubble within. Later energies are 'bought in' , in polarity of type so they balance each other. After a while there is no need for a circle at all.

This could be a key component of 'regression' in psycho-therapy; some things were needed to suppressed in us ( to get by, or get to a certain stage ) , but unless dealt with, they can emerge later and cause trouble - sometimes in obscurely related ways. The therapists job is to bring them up to light in the consciousness and help re-integrate the person.

This is another link I put up a bit, you may not have seen it before ? I think it is an essential part of the puzzle, being based on empirical findings of a qualified psychiatrist that worked with people that were deemed 'incurable' with psychosis and other problems. Dr VanDusen decided to treat them, using considerations about demonic and angelic possession from Swedenborg and the 'internal hierarchy of spirits' theory ;

http://www.searchwithin.org/download...ce_spirits.pdf

Also I have a couple of articles / posts around here utilising these sources ( Crowley, Dr van Dusen, Jung, Israel Regardie - who was a trained psychiatrist) examining the idea of an internal hierarchy of spirits and how magical practice, in this area, can be useful for 'psychic integration'

It is also my contention that crowley put this up as an obvious teaching, its in his OTO constitution qute clearly, and given as advice in his OTO 2nd degree ritual - which he says is the key and central one.

One can see it laid out ( the internal hierarchy of forces and how they are SUPPOSED to interrelate within the self ) in the 'Constitution of the OTO' , which is an external reflection of an internal ordering - different levels and 'degrees' relating to aspects of the psyche, their responsibility and level of autonomy and/or control ;

http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0194.html

eg. " 24. The Supreme and Most Holy King is appointed by the O.H.O. His is the ultimate responsibility for all within his holy kingdom. "

This is the outer version of the internal 'king' I spoke of earlier. The O H O (outer head of the Order ) one can see as 'the king' - overall and 'lesser kings' ruling parts. Or the OHO as your connection with the 'outer' (as any internal process must be modifies to some extent, for sociocultural reasons )

Some say, this is my individual take on it ... even some senior OTO members seemed to think my view on this was 'novel' ....

.... yet point 1 states pretty clearly ;

" This is the Constitution and Government of our Holy Order; by the study of its Balance ***** you may yourself come to apprehension of how to rule your own life ****. For, in True Things, all are but images one of another; man is but a map of the universe, and Society is but the same on a larger scale. " ( my emphasis )

and at the end , " Such is a brief outline of the government of the O.T.O. It combines monarchy with democracy; it includes aristocracy, and conceals even the seeds of revolution, by which alone progress can be effected. Thus we balance the Triads, uniting the Three in One; thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe— See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren! "

IMO - read a certain way, the OTO constitution is an excellent map for navigating and regulating the psyche .

In this scenario , Choronzon represents the breakdown of this , an internal anarchy. And with deep 'Id forces' boiling around in there, anarchy may not be beneficial to one's function purpose and stability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post

So as you say, I guess if you liken these to demons they can be us, or rather hidden aspects. Which can also be projected out on to the big scapegoat- the Thoth Devil or other people. (I wouldn't rule out though autonomous beings or aspect fragments not being part of ourselves. We are beings and there are other ones that are not us).

Another interesting observation !

Traditional magicians that poo poo AC complain, he took magic out of the world and turned into pop-psychology. Real externalised forces exist. Modern one's poo poo the old - its all a psychological projection. That's why I like Harpur and middle position a 'third' or 'diamonic reality' where they can interpenetrate and effect each other..

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Chorozon also seems to be mentioned as the ‘Lord of Hallucinations’.
Thats a relevant reminder for me !

Dr van Dusen speaks technically of good and bad possessing spirits in his patients as ' hallucinations of a good order' or 'hallucinations of a bad order' , the way he classified and noted their behavior and how they respond to certain things, is pretty close to the laws and processes of evocative magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
I have been looking at Liber777 to see if there are any Thoth card attributions as they have titles like Lord of.. I couldn’t see anything. Maybe it is related just to the hidden Da’aath sephira at the Abyss or paralleled lower at Yesod. This sphere on the tree also seems to be a bridge or a crossing from material to planes, with the Moon (feminine) symbol and the Moon card on a nearby path. That’s a bit of a stretch although this card does have awful illusions too.
not too much of a stretch IMO. You probably already may know, but DuQuette's 'Tarot of magicians ' (I think it is called ) shows the 'demonic' forces associated with each card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Dispersion also could suggest dispersing, as in seeding, with an initiatory feel, The Moon card seems to have awful illusions and dark night of the soul themes, a forerunner of crossing the Abyss higher up.
Interesting, as seed dispersion, first requires a 'seed' and a seed is the essential pattern of the plant, stripped from all its other functions - its 'archetypal form' .
Yes, I can see a similarity in both those positions on the Tree ... a big similarity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Please excuse my rambling.. I had all ready written a reply, fairly lengthy and then must have got timed out as I had to sign in again and lost it)
Isnt that annoying !
Top   #24
ravenest's Avatar
ravenest  ravenest is offline
ravenator
 
Join Date: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 13,835
ravenest 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Another interesting book to add in the reading list. It was freely downloadable so I did
Relationship between AC and SMRD, and all the early GD members leaders seem quite interesting topic itself, which would help in the study of Thoth. I gather there are books just focusing on these subjects. I have a couple written by F. King, which I haven't read yet.
'What you should know about the Golden Dawn' , a great and interesting book by Regardie outlines the kerfuffle and the at times amusing court proceedings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post

Yup, it depends on how one views the world, i.e. materialistic, idealistic, agnostic, spiritual ...etc. But the demons, yeah I believe they are there in various different forms, within me, around me and in the world.
.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORGaxBB4YO0


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post

Sometimes, I perceive Time as demon, because it is out of our control. It drags us to the future whether we like it or not, it brings all the changes whether we like it or not ... in the end, it kills people - everyone, and yet at times we miss the past times reflecting the sweet parts. Time is one of the most powerful demon.
Hmmm .... time : Chronos : Chor onzon ? ?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono..._and_etymology
Top   #25
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 
Thumbs up


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
'What you should know about the Golden Dawn' , a great and interesting book by Regardie outlines the kerfuffle and the at times amusing court proceedings.
Yup, it seems getting great reviews from Amazon.com customers. I managed to download it for free Thank you for your info & recommendation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Hmmm .... time : Chronos : Chor onzon ? ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono..._and_etymology
A great link.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
whooa what a song, cool lyrics deep and philosophical.

Was driving home tonight reflecting about the demons that are invisible. And the car radio played this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufERJEdcfAY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrHl0wpagFc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlMWYID-hOo
Top   #26
foolMoon's Avatar
foolMoon  foolMoon is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 30 Apr 2014
Location: Garden of Light
Posts: 985
foolMoon 

This version seems best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Wf4GmMyJY
Top   #27
smw's Avatar
smw  smw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Sep 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 623
smw 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post


Sometimes, I perceive Time as demon, because it is out of our control. It drags us to the future whether we like it or not, it brings all the changes whether we like it or not ... in the end, it kills people - everyone,
Maybe like the Thoth Death too...Black Saturn represented with the Skeleton and scythe. Also, Chronos (father time) as Ravenest suggested. I am not that familiar with Alchemy though Blackness, nigredo seems to be the process of putrefaction, I guess changes (though formidable) before being transformed to something better. There seems to be hints of this too in the Moon card " she is the poisoned darkness which is the condition of the rebirth of light" (BOT). Maybe Binah the great Mother of the black waters and dad working together

(Death is also attributed to the letter Nun - the fish - lots of associations here though getting further off topic).

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
in the end, it kills people - everyone, and yet at times we miss the past times reflecting the sweet parts. Time is one of the most powerful demon.
I'm not keen with losses of people or good sweet parts either sometimes it seems like an inevitable price to pay for being able to have those attachments in the first place. Although it is amazing though when you think about how wonderful it is being alive and in matter... wind in your hair, nature and other beings that you can connect with and love.



Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
A great post. As I have not read any of "TVAV" of AC yet, I cannot add anything here, but certainly very interesting, and thought provoking. I will come back on this later after I get hold of the book and do some studies.

Meanwhile "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will."
93
Thank you
Top   #28
smw's Avatar
smw  smw is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 26 Sep 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 623
smw 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Functioning parts of us (with various degrees of autonomy ) become 'dissociated' and seek identity. In a way, it is a bit like when an individual feels disassociated from society; they can go into a depressed funk, or actually start anti-social behaviour and become a disruptive element.
I guess, though maybe those dissociated parts are actually closer to being integrated as they are being acted out in noticeable ways, almost drawing attention to themselves. (or they just want to Live ?) What might be harder to spot is the more subtle ways our separated (shadow) aspects can come to the surface without being noticed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Maybe, Choronzon, being the 'demon of dispersion' is the 'basic force' behind these 'lesser manifestation' ?[
yes, could be. Or perhaps there is also a protective element to splitting off aspects of our self to cope with situations. maybe if they become too fragmented they might be susceptible to possession by archetypal energies, like you say someone strongly feeling dissociated or loss of identity within society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
.Many beginners start magic with a circle and banishing ritual, threatening or unbalanced energies are pushed out and one remains in a safe bubble within. Later energies are 'bought in' , in polarity of type so they balance each other. After a while there is no need for a circle at all.
hmm...I have noticed being rather bad tempered sometimes after trying the LBRP. Though that also happened with meditation. I tried sessions of yoga and after saying I am peace... peace my family said three times I came home in a bad mood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
This could be a key component of 'regression' in psycho-therapy; some things were needed to suppressed in us ( to get by, or get to a certain stage ) , but unless dealt with, they can emerge later and cause trouble - sometimes in obscurely related ways. The therapists job is to bring them up to light in the consciousness and help re-integrate the person.
Regression? isn't that claims made agains't controversial therapists who were said to have regressed people back to childhood and finding stuff that wasn't there? Though integrating by bringing up suppressed thoughts and feelings etc does seem to be an aim of traditional psychotherapy/psychoanalysis. There is another interesting view that dissociated aspects are split or dissociated 'vertically' rather than horizontally. Sideways... compartmentalizing..
Top   #29
ravenest's Avatar
ravenest  ravenest is offline
ravenator
 
Join Date: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 13,835
ravenest 

Some of Swedenborg's writings on 'Hierarchies of Spirits' (within the individual ) may be useful here; 'Man stands at the crossroads' , seems to indicate an intersection of directions .

I have a few books outlining bad results ... really bad, from some cases of 'regression therapy' , they all seem to be done by 'healers', 'hypnotherapists' and fringies that want to mess with your psychology.

I am talking about properly qualified people doing "regression" , not some dangerous New Age therapist ... also as well as the 'psychological dynamic' involved, also valuable is the more external 'transactional approach with analysis . But I feel that is more indicative of a condition, rater than addressing its issue at 'the root'.

IMO Freud's system alone is problematical .... that is why I find the psychiatric (and magical ) work of Isreal Regardie interesting - yes, he was professionally qualified ;

" In 1937, at the age of 30, Regardie returned to the U.S., entering Chiropractic College in New York City. In addition, he studied psychoanalysis with Dr. E. Clegg and Dr. J. L. Bendit, and psychotherapy with Dr. Nandor Fodor. He opened a chiropractic office and taught psychiatry – Reichian, Freudian, and Jungian – retiring in 1981 at the age of 74, when he moved to Sedona, Arizona."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Regardie
Top   #30




 


 


Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Tarot Forum
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Links
· Tarot
· Tarot Special Interest
· Beyond Tarot
· Forum Library

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Tarot Books
· What's New

Copyright © 1996 - 2019 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.