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Michellehihi  Michellehihi is offline
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Originally Posted by Thoughtful View Post
Gregory your posts here have made me feel so much better about my relationship with the Thoth.
l bought it a while back and decided to get the DuQuette book and dedicate myself to learning as much as possible. Well l did not do well (l put it down to age/brain deterioration!) it all became too much to take in so l abandoned the book, deck the whole darned thing, apart from the astrological references.
Anyway l kept wanting to pick the deck up again, l think its the wonderful artwork that kept calling me. l love the imagery. l sat with the cards and did some self readings using my intuition and letting the imagery speak to me, it worked like a dream suddenly it all made sense.
Having read about Lillie and what you have had to say gregory l don't feel l have to struggle to use the Thoth, l just stay open to what it will teach me.
l never got on with RWS it seemed so staid and bland, though l tried many times with it. The Thoth in comparison is so full of meaning and wonder it opens up like an ever flowing stream.
Hope l don't upset the purists here but l have to work with the Thoth in my own way. Its proving to be a remarkable journey. Who knows some of what l have read may slowly filter through this old brain of mine to add more dimension.
So if you are a beginner with Thoth like me do not abandon all hope quite yet, let it take you at your pace in the way you feel comfortable with.
Who knows we could all end up like Lillie.
thank you so much for sharing this! This is how I feel, and I am happy to know that you are able to read intuitively with the Thoth, I once read that given all those symbols, that those cards can't be read intuitively. I am glad to hear a different opinion!
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Originally Posted by Michellehihi View Post
thank you so much for sharing this! This is how I feel, and I am happy to know that you are able to read intuitively with the Thoth, I once read that given all those symbols, that those cards can't be read intuitively. I am glad to hear a different opinion!
When I read a deck intuitively, I go by the ideas suggested by the images on the cards. For me it would be very difficult to read images full of strange symbols which I do not understand. I am not saying that it is impossible, only that I would be more comfortable with a deck having more familiar imagery.

Does it not bother you to read images which you do not understand, or am I missing something?
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Richard, personally l cannot take in all the Hebrew, decans etc. it is overload for me. As mentioned l can read the Thoth more easily by looking at the keyword and intuitively picking up what the image is portraying.
It does not bother me just reading the images as l find them clear and, yes l disregard the symbols apart from the astrological. Not the best way to read Thoth l know but l want to use the deck and this is my tentative way in.
l don't feel any deck should be above itself that it cannot be worked with by anyone. l admire those who have studied this deck to the nth degree, good on you, l really do mean that. There has to be room for this mighty deck to allow the not so cerebal to at least peep in the window. l, like many readers work with feelings, intuition and empathy and that is how l am learning to work with this deck.
Thoth is looking at me kindly from its lofty, hallowed status, it deigns to allow me access and works with me at the level l am comfortable with.

"The Master teaches at the pupils level of understanding."

I am sure Michellehihi will do well however she uses the Thoth.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoughtful View Post
Richard, personally l cannot take in all the Hebrew, decans etc. it is overload for me. As mentioned l can read the Thoth more easily by looking at the keyword and intuitively picking up what the image is portraying.
It does not bother me just reading the images as l find them clear and, yes l disregard the symbols apart from the astrological. Not the best way to read Thoth l know but l want to use the deck and this is my tentative way in.
l don't feel any deck should be above itself that it cannot be worked with by anyone. l admire those who have studied this deck to the nth degree, good on you, l really do mean that. There has to be room for this mighty deck to allow the not so cerebal to at least peep in the window. l, like many readers work with feelings, intuition and empathy and that is how l am learning to work with this deck.
Thoth is looking at me kindly from its lofty, hallowed status, it deigns to allow me access and works with me at the level l am comfortable with.

"The Master teaches at the pupils level of understanding."

I am sure Michellehihi will do well however she uses the Thoth.
this is very well put Thoughtful!
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Nemia  Nemia is offline
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Thoughtful, this is just the way it should be. I've been working with the Thoth for so many years and only in the last two years, under the gentle guidance of AT wise men and women, dipped my feet in the deeper waters.

The intuitive understanding of the images is the first and most important foundation for Thoth readings, I still think so. If after a time you feel you'd like to understand more, just go ahead. The Thoth is a wonderful teaching and learning deck. And you can read with it every step on the way. The cards make sense - and you don't have to pass the Kabbalah 101 before you can understand that sense.

Astrology and kabbalah add depth, but you will catch them anyway if you just stay with the Thoth long enough ;-)

One basic aspect that's easy to understand because the colors and images already communicate it is the elemental aspect. Everybody knows that water acts and reacts differently from Fire or Air.

If you then know enough about astrology to know which signs are associated with each element, great. Then you have already the logic behind the decans: Fire birth signs appear in the Fire suit (Wands), Water signs in the Water suit. Since there are nine minor cards and three birth signs for every element, it's logical that every zodiac sign is associated with three minor cards. Three Libra cards that belong to Swords, three Cancer cards in Cups etc.

And these three Libra or Cancer cards differ because they host a different planet each.

That's all you have to know as background. The specific information, which sign and which planet, is written on the card anyway.

I admit that for me (fluent Hebrew speaker) the Hebrew letters don't add understanding. I find them counter-intuitive in the GD system since they're associated with the "wrong" numbers. Bet is for me always 2 and not one, and no GD author will convince me otherwise.
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Thoughtful 

Nemia thank you so much for your reassuring post.

All points noted, it gives me heart to know l can begin to work with Thoth the way l am doing.
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Originally Posted by Nemia View Post
......I admit that for me (fluent Hebrew speaker) the Hebrew letters don't add understanding. I find them counter-intuitive in the GD system since they're associated with the "wrong" numbers. Bet is for me always 2 and not one, and no GD author will convince me otherwise.
Indeed, Bet is always the cardinal number 2, but in the Thoth the Hebrew alphabet is not being used to represent the cardinal numbering of the cards, as it would then be impossible to represent cards numbered greater than 10 by a single Hebrew letter. Instead, the alphabet is being used ordinally. The first card of the Major Arcana is the Fool, so it is assigned the first letter of the alphabet, Alef. The second card is the Magus, so it is the second letter Bet, and so on. The Hebrew alphabet is not being used for its numerical cardinality, but for the meanings of the letters in the Sefer Yetzirah.
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A fantastic thread!! It has prompted me to consider buying a Thoth deck.
Top   #38
Nemia  Nemia is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Indeed, Bet is always the cardinal number 2, but in the Thoth the Hebrew alphabet is not being used to represent the cardinal numbering of the cards, as it would then be impossible to represent cards numbered greater than 10 by a single Hebrew letter. Instead, the alphabet is being used ordinally. The first card of the Major Arcana is the Fool, so it is assigned the first letter of the alphabet, Alef. The second card is the Magus, so it is the second letter Bet, and so on. The Hebrew alphabet is not being used for its numerical cardinality, but for the meanings of the letters in the Sefer Yetzirah.
I know, I know... but it doesn't help. Imagine you use a deck where the number 2 is counted as 3. It would confuse you, too. I use Hebrew letters as numbers every day (today is yom alef, the first day of the week), and I CAN'T get used to it. Zephyros manages it, I have to disregard it, it's too confusing.

I think that if you use a system (in this case, the use of Hebrew letters as numbers), then do it right. They might have put the Fool at the end or not counted him at all, and it would all have worked out beautifully, like in the French system. And then I also feel comfortable with gematria, because the system is stringent in itself.

In the case of the GD, I simply notice that they didn't have a "feel" for the Hebrew letters and bent them to their uses. In a way, like Christian cabalists did with Jewish kabbalah. Cultural appropriation you call it? Reminds me a bit of it.

I honestly also don't see how the literal meaning of the Hebrew letter (gimel is camel, dalet is door) helps in understanding the cards. I'm sorry if I sound like a total ignoramus but I think that you can apply them to ANY card. Every card carries unexpected reserves like the camel, and every card opens a door. These "meanings" are so general that they turn into phrases like newspaper horoscopes which suit everyone. I never read an explanation that convinced me or gave me this spark of: AAAH, that's how they're connected. And knowing Hebrew, I SEE these meanings when I see the letter.

I studied it all and came to the conclusion that these parts go against my grain. If you don't speak Hebrew in every day life, you probably don't care whether gimel is read as three or four. For me, gimel is and will always be 3. Yom gimel is the third day, kita gimel is 3rd grade. I can't fight my poor old brain. But I don't tell anybody else what to think.

I was relieved, though, to read in Yoav Ben Dov's book that he also thinks the GD association is strange.
The English school of Tarot adopted a different system. As The Fool card was moved to the top of the suit, it was matched to the first letter Aleph. The rest of the cards were matched according to the sequence order, which made Beth correspond to The Magician, Gimel (the third letter) to The Popess and so on. This correspondence may seem strange to those who know Gimatria, the traditional notation of numbers by Hebrew letters which is very important in the Cabbala.
Ben-Dov, Yoav (2014-01-25). Tarot - The Open Reading (p. 89). . Kindle Edition.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post
I studied it all and came to the conclusion that these parts go against my grain. If you don't speak Hebrew in every day life, you probably don't care whether gimel is read as three or four. For me, gimel is and will always be 3......
And Tau will always be 400, not 21, 22, or 0.
Top   #40




 


 


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