XI. Lust - Woman on a lion

ravenest

Hi Ravenest, no I wasn't responding to your post but to the original/first post of the topic starter.

As I wrote in my post, I don't know if everything I wrote is right, it's (part of) my interpretation of the card at this time, I'm a bginner at Qabala, (most of my knowledge on the tree of life comes from Dion Fortune's book 'The mystical Qabala) so I do not pretend to know everything but I like to try to apply the things I have read about the tree of life to the Thoth tarot now, I think that that's part of a learning process, the comments of others (like you) on my philosophizing are part of that process as well so thank you for your comment, although I must emphasize that my response was not directed at you.

Ooopsa ! :laugh:

I am used to the post underneath relating to the one above it, if the post underneath doesn't quote the post it is answering. .... like this one :)
 

ravenest

... Seven heads, seven Sephiroth below the Abyss, seven letters in the name of Babalon, seven classical planets. It's probably possible to allocate each to a Sephira, but I never did it, although I can make a few guesses ...

" Seven are the veils of the dancing girl
in the harem of It.
Seven are the names
and seven are the lamps beside Her bed.
Seven eunuchs guard Her with drawn sword;
No man may come nigh unto Her.
In Her wine-cup are seven streams of blood
of the Seven Spirits of God.
Seven are the heads of The Beast whereon She rideth.
The head of an Angel: the head of a Saint:
the head of a Poet: the head of an Adulterous woman:
the head of a Man of Valour: the head of a Satyr:
and the head of a Lion-Serpent.
Seven letters hath Her holiest name; and it is

BABALON

This is the Seal upon the Ring that is on the Forefinger of IT: and it is the Seal upon the Tombs of them whom She hath slain.

Here is Wisdom. Let Him that hath Understanding count the Number of Our Lady; for it is the Number of a Woman; and Her Number is An Hundred and Fifty and Six. "

From an old post of mine:

ravenest said:
To return to my central theme; ie 7 or 8 heads of beast on Atu XI:
Obviously the formula is for 7 as all relevant references, formula and correspondences confirm this. But on the card itself;
I am seeing it like this, on the beasts neck appear to be 6 heads, roughly arranged as a penatgram/gon, with one in the middle.
I classify them thus; (from the viewers perspective)
1). top head - Lion type head, looking to the right.
2), 3) & 4). [middle row] Womans head looking left, bearded mans head looking ahead & mans head angled at 45 degrees.
5) & 6) [bottom row] Mans head looking ahead & womans head looking to the right and back (at the woman riding the beast?) - in side profile of cheekbone and chin.
[and 7) on the tail.]
x). the mystery area, like a face, above 3) and left of 1).

A.C. gives; Angel, Saint, Poet, Adulterous Woman, Man of Valour, Satyr, Lion Serpent.
I'm attributing;
Angel to 2) {my 2) above} - it looks ahead in the direction the beast is travelling - Saturn, above the abyss.
Saint to 5) below the Angel, an earthly reflection of heavenly power -Jupiter.
Poet to 3) , A bearded bard, mercury.
Adulterous woman to 6), venus.
Man of valour to 4) {appears to have a chain mail helmet and moustach - a knight?}, Mars.
Satyr to 1), Moon. [but it looks like a lion].
Lion Sepent, to the head on the tail. Sun.

other possibilities - x) is the satyr and 1) & 7) are 2 versions of the Lion looking at each other (one únsepentized and the other serpentized)
or
1) is satyr and x) is part of that.
or (most likely) - x) is part of the bards headress - a head band with 2 circular shapes with 2 "sprigs'' rising from them (x's nose and 2 eyes) a feather on the left of the crown, but the right side of the crown seems to melt into 1)'s neck.
Looking at x alone, it is a wierd squat assymetrical grotesque face, looking ahead. On i's left side is growing another face in profile with a big nose and strange teeth, nearly Aztec in style. or an angry fish.
All of this seems unlikley which is why I opt for the Bards headress option.
However its quiet possible A.C.'s first visions of this were had when tripping on home synthesised mexican magic cactus juice (A.L.)

PS. but I'm not
 

yogiman

However its quiet possible A.C.'s first visions of this were had when tripping on home synthesised mexican magic cactus juice

Forgive me for my impudence, but this visions thing is something that still gives me an uneasy feeling with the BoT: How do we know whether his visions are really archetypal, and not drugs induced? Or how likely is A.C. to have real religious visions in that case?
 

Richard

Forgive me for my impudence, but this visions thing is something that still gives me an uneasy feeling with the BoT: How do we know whether his visions are really archetypal, and not drugs induced? Or how likely is A.C. to have real religious visions in that case?
Good question, but it's like asking whether the visions are purely spiritual (whatever that means) or alchemical. Is there necessarily a difference, and does it matter? Crowley probably identified with the Magus (Thoth/Mercury/Hermes), the trickster god.
 

Zephyros

I don't think it really matters. There hasn't been a culture that didn't have a history of drug-induced visions at some point, or hallucinations due to hunger or fatigue (no doubt one of the reasons all prophets go to the desert). Sweat lodges are what it's all about. If one believes the "praeternatural being" origin story of Thelema (or, for that matter, any other faith) either the absence or presence of drugs shouldn't make a difference. If one does not, same thing. Would "thou shalt not kill" make any less sense if Moses was under the influence when he thought of it? One can still receive divine edicts when under the influence. Some would say drugs open one up to such things and... I would tend to agree, without admitting to anything.

Be aware, though, that study of the Thoth need not entail subscription to Thelema, nor does it mean emulating Crowley. A personal favorite quote of his:

Here then let me make open confession, and say thus: though I pledged myself almost in boyhood to the Great Work, though to my aid came the most puissant forces in the whole Universe to hold me to it, though habit itself now constraineth me in the right direction, yet I have not fulfilled my Will: I turn aside daily from the appointed task. I waver. I falter. I lag.

Let this then be of great comfort to you all, that if I be so imperfect— and for very shame I have not emphasized that imperfection— if I, the chosen one, still fail, then how easy for yourselves to surpass me! Or, should you only equal me, then even so how great attainment should be yours!

is quite freeing. Even were he the most sinful, degraded man ever to walk the earth (which might be the case, or at least a close second after me!) this would still make little difference. I do not consider myself a Thelemite (I have a problem with clubs, cliques and labels) but the way I resolve Crowley with my studies is that I don't. Besides, drugs aren't morally evil in and of themselves, although they do cause societal evils in certain configurations. Do you think that, among his many failing, drugs use was to the detriment of his character?

ETA: He apparently enjoyed cooking as well. Here's a recipe for sacrificial goat à la Satan Our Master

http://m.voices.yahoo.com/aleister-crowleys-rice-pilaf-recipe-rewritten-for-6978818.html
 

yogiman

I am realizing now that I don't need to be ashamed about any question.

During the golden dawn debacle there was a dispute among some members whether the cipher manuscripts were forged. Crowley demanded from Westcott that he sent the manuscripts to the the british museum for scrutiny.

History is repeating itself.
 

yogiman

Do you think that, among his many failing, drugs use was to the detriment of his character?

I am living in Amsterdam, and I can tell from experience around me that cocaine IS detrimental to the character.
 

Richard

I am living in Amsterdam, and I can tell from experience around me that cocaine IS detrimental to the character.
Cocaine is highly addictive, which can lead to criminal activity in order to obtain the drug. I don't think that the drug itself can directly affect one's moral standards. Not trying to defend Crowley, but wasn't his addiction mainly to downers/opiates (prescribed for his asthma) rather than stimulants?
 

Richard

I am realizing now that I don't need to be ashamed about any question.

During the golden dawn debacle there was a dispute among some members whether the cipher manuscripts were forged. Crowley demanded from Westcott that he sent the manuscripts to the the british museum for scrutiny.

History is repeating itself.
One should not place one's absolute faith in a particular religion or occult society. Rather, one should try to find the truth therein by means of experience and experiment. The cipher manuscripts may have been fake, but that does not necessarily invalidate their content.
 

Zephyros

During the golden dawn debacle there was a dispute among some members whether the cipher manuscripts were forged. Crowley demanded from Westcott that he sent the manuscripts to the the british museum for scrutiny.

History is repeating itself.

Does this mean you feel you are surrounded by blind adherents? I doubt this is the case, from my experience with the forum I have not seen much Crowley-fanaticism. There is no one here who accepts Crowley's antics as beyond reproach or even a role model. In his writings is also much blatant anti-Semitism, and I would not defend such a stance, yet I still study his writings. His own personality does not negate the worth of the occult research he carried out.

As to his use of drugs, apart from his heroin addiction (which as LRichard pointed out was prescribed to him by his doctor as per the practice of the day) much of his drug use was experimental, done in the name of his spiritual searchings, and the results were recorded meticulously. This should not be emulated, except by people who really know what they're doing. Drug use is a part on many shamanic cultures, but perhaps not cocaine, which probably does not lend itself too much to vision searching.

Besides, I wouldn't characterize what happened at the Golden Dawn a debacle, exactly. It officially endured for thirteen years and then for a variety of reasons then ended. However, during that short span, it produced innumerable occult works, fathered offshoots that were to change much of how the occult is viewed internationally, had profound effects on society and culture in general and was directly responsible for the modern Tarot movement. It can be directly connected to Paganism and Wicca and (in a more bastardized form) New Age. So it began with a forgery and ended in fire, that still does not negate its contribution.

Besides, what's an occult forgery anyway? The Tree of Life (in its many permutations) itself is merely an artificial model created by Man as a way of projecting ideas on to. Was it divinely inspired? I don't care. Does it work? Yes (depending on your definition of work). Is it a forgery because traditionally Abraham was the first Kabbalist and received it directly from God? Well, Abraham probably didn't exist, so strictly speaking Kabbalah is a forgery, a crock. The occult is full of so-called personages proclaiming ancient authority, it's all fake, but the rice pilaf still tastes good, and is good for you.