Lust and restriction

MasterJm

Could Lust mean sexual passion's self-expression restriction ? Is Lust a surrenderer or a tyrant ?
 

RViewer

lust is both a surrenderer and a tyrant. Sexual passion does not equate to lust. lust is a very specific mode of feeling which arises out of intense greed and disregard for others and ultimately for oneself.

lust is born and lives within ignorance.
 

MasterJm

lust is both a surrenderer and a tyrant. Sexual passion does not equate to lust. lust is a very specific mode of feeling which arises out of intense greed and disregard for others and ultimately for oneself.

lust is born and lives within ignorance.

Helena Blavatsky writes in Secret Doctrine that Babalon is the Church, dogmatic, tyrannical, restrictive, drunk by the blood of saints (scientists, magicians, etc).

I have readed the following quote here, in that topic and i feel that is very familiar to me and my experiences. I could have write the following using other words. I didn't feel ever free with "Babalon's Ladies". I was feeling like their slave or being in chastity for long periods followed by sexual eruptions and short term sexual union or short breaks of sexual union. I felt also that all of them were extremely restrictive to my sexual expression, so that i was desiring them even more. They were also either extremely dogmatic, conservative, frigid and restrictive, earth-bound, realists, or extremely free without sexual limits like prostitutes (i have to admit that i prefere and honour the Great Whore).

The following quote impressed me. I recognized in that many commons, especially that of emasulation.

Originally Posted by JadoreHauteCouture
I dont agree with any of these interpretations at all... Maybe my point of view is totally opposite or extreme but i guess i join in with my 2 cents..

So the streght is generally about becoming yourself... finding your true potential and being who you are... like a lion, being fearless, knowing who you are and what you want...
We can see that by zebras in the background... they represent the outer world that is naturally offered to lion... his possibilities and purpose.... Lion is a predator and his purpose is to explore, dominate, ravage, to be the king of the jungle (in human case, being on top, king of the world)...

yes, he is starring at the zebras, but he is not hunting them, not even following them... the lion, paradoxly is enslaved... he is not waiting to hunt them, he is not even preparing either... lion naturally knows what he needs to do, and he naturally knows how to do it... he knows how to hunt... there is no need for preparation...

Now... I dont know where people are getting all these romantical ideas.. it is a naked slim smouldering woman on a lion in both Mary-el/Thoth... no one finds that at least puzzling, not even disturbing???
The image is not about a lion at all... It is a metaphore for a man... A man - natural hunter since ancient times - who knows what he wants and how to get it... Naked woman represents a seduction/a sin... it represents a woman who distracts the man from following his own purpose and being himself, just to get some... and you know what i mean... her p...y... thats why the woman is not afraid of the lion and she has him BETWEEN her legs... to make him forget his essence, who he is, and control him through sex, pleasure and earthy desires...

the lion should stay who he is... a hunter... (you can imagine a fearless enterpreneuer, who is successful in his business and gets what he wants, house, cars, clothes and so on)... lion should find another lioness who will simply accept him as his equal mate, let him be a king of the jungle and simply have a mutual love and create family...

now this woman comes into the scene... since she is on top of the lion, it automatically talks about inequality... the woman controls lion in every single way.... the top became a bottom... and how she controls him? through sex, desires, being naked and also through flashy clothers, low V-necks, miniskirts, make-up and jewelery... thats why she is naked but only has pearl ring and necklace... (it could be prayer beads, but i dont see the cross and the beads looks too pearl-like, expensive)... shes totally naked... why she wears a pearl ring? maybe shes wearing also 10-inches pornstar stilletos too?

This picture talks about a man who is successful, king of the world, but finds some bimbo who starts to controlling him through sex... instead of finding equal woman who is accepting him and letting him be free, he finds this supermodel that only pleases his libido, instead of supporting him to fulfill his dreams... I mean, why do you guys think the Thoth's Strenght is called "The Lust"???? This man buys this woman expensive stuff and jewelery and focuses on conquering her instead of those zebras... and this woman only prays that she wins and chains him down through the sex. She hopes the man doesnt realize he is being controlled and he is pursuing only flashy box with nothing inside...

If you want prayers to find answers, I would personally pull High Priestess (intuition), High Priest (knowledge) or hermit (inner studies) to go inside and prepare. or in case of preparation chariot or again hermit (inner studies)... The Streght card is about people who have naturally everything they need to become successful and they need to find inner courage/strenght to go out and get them and resist the temptation on the road....

This card paired with 7 cups is the deadliest combinations... the best way to be trapped into passivity instead of working on yourself and progressing, but being fully controlled by pleasures and lust...

one of the most negative cards with one of the biggest potentials but also with the biggest challenges... resist something our sinful nature dies for, so that we can become better ourselves...

i know too many men who got enslaved by sex and desires... they were so smart and successful but they got deceived by sex and they didnt even realize it and this woman had full control of their life and finances, not letting them to pursue anything they liked and used to do before... successful man turned into a coward by dictator-like woman who constantly tells him how to do things, yet she has absolutely no idea how to do them. A gay man who is stuck in marriage, but he cannot become himself/happy with another man, cuz a woman controls him, she can allow him to sleep with other men (lust), but she fully controls his life, his finances, his family, his time and hobbies, his dreams, his reputation... A man with amazing potential who got deceited by a smouldering gold-digger, she got pregnant and turned him into a baby daddy, now she controls him through the baby and paying all her bills, he gives her money that she uses on expensive manicure and hair saloons rather than baby... This card is about demasculating a man (a person) by trapping him into sinful and lustful nature... I dont see anything romantic about that... People need to find XI. Strenght to resist temptation... Naked woman on a lion always represents temptation...
 

ravenest

Could Lust mean sexual passion's self-expression restriction ? Is Lust a surrenderer or a tyrant ?

For me 'Lust' (in this context i.e. on the Thoth Atu XI ) is that state 'enflamed in prayer' (even 'Energised Enthusiasm'), however you get there. A magician in/evokes it. Most of us have it rise and fall like tides or 'biorhythms', suppress it, enjoy it, or become addicted to the brain chemicals it produces.

The 'us' or the magician can 'ride' it, direct or control it to the ends of their operations.

To restrict doesnt work, to direct seems better. Lust should not be tyrant, neither should that which directs it. It may 'surrender', but with the understanding that, that might be a better way of getting what it wants and developing itself.
 

MasterJm

For me 'Lust' (in this context i.e. on the Thoth Atu XI ) is that state 'enflamed in prayer' (even 'Energised Enthusiasm'), however you get there. A magician in/evokes it. Most of us have it rise and fall like tides or 'biorhythms', suppress it, enjoy it, or become addicted to the brain chemicals it produces.

The 'us' or the magician can 'ride' it, direct or control it to the ends of their operations.

To restrict doesnt work, to direct seems better. Lust should not be tyrant, neither should that which directs it. It may 'surrender', but with the understanding that, that might be a better way of getting what it wants and developing itself.

I didn't meet ever a woman that i thougt was Babalon "incarnated" who was not a evil tyrant, a mad woman or a cheater at the end. I would like to know how someone recognizes a real Babalon-lady, but i can't understand why i attract all these weak women, needy cheaters. I was selfless with all of them, but they were evil and extremely restricting liers. Do you have any idea if a spread could help me to understand and show me the way to a real serious, honest partner who can appreciate my selflessness ? I want to predict when and how it will happen again without to be cheated by Choronzon again. A friend of mine, thelemite, told me that Babalon comes to our life not to stay. Ι wish a relationship for ever, because i am not young anymore.
 

Aeon418

Shadow...

I didn't meet ever a woman that i thougt was Babalon "incarnated" who was not a evil tyrant, a mad woman or a cheater at the end.
Babalon is an Lunar-Yonic archetype of the qabalistic sephira Binah. It's an inner reality. Projecting it outward onto flesh and blood women is in my opinion a mistake.
 

Zephyros

Babalon is an Lunar-Yonic archetype of the qabalistic sephira Binah. It's an inner reality. Projecting it outward onto flesh and blood women is in my opinion a mistake.

I agree, as is the equation of Choronzon to some devil-figure.
 

ravenest

MJ, I am not sure where to start ... what a big mess :( ... that JHC quote you put up - there is SO much wrong with that I dont where to start there either. This: " ... finding your true potential and being who you are... like a lion, being fearless, knowing who you are and what you want... and his purpose is to explore, dominate, ravage, to be the king of the jungle (in human case, being on top, king of the world)..." Sounds, to me like God's charge to Adam in the Garden of Eden, except God has supplied him with an M16 as well.

There are many threads here about Card 11 from different perspectives - be good for you to read up on them.


I didn't meet ever a woman that i thougt was Babalon "incarnated" who was not a evil tyrant, a mad woman or a cheater at the end.

It is not at all impossible that your misperception of what Babalon is in the first place is what is attracting you to this sort of woman. If I think the 'dream woman' is weak, I will seek out weak woman (perhaps without even knowing that) ... then I will complain that all these dream women are weak.

I would like to know how someone recognizes a real Babalon-lady,

Hard to explain here ... they stand out quiet distinctly to me. There are a few around ... but not so many men that can handle that.

A Question - you relate Babalon as a model or archetype for some woman - what is yours, as male? And how do you see it operating?

but i can't understand why i attract all these weak women, needy cheaters. I was selfless with all of them, but they were evil and extremely restricting liers. Do you have any idea if a spread could help me to understand and show me the way to a real serious, honest partner who can appreciate my selflessness ?

Yes, I do have an idea about that and NO a spread wont do it. It seems deep issues with self and perhaps your social environment.
I want to predict when and how it will happen again without to be cheated by Choronzon again.

A friend of mine, thelemite, told me that Babalon comes to our life not to stay. Ι wish a relationship for ever, because i am not young anymore.

I dont think any of this is going to work out ... IMO the view point (and rear view point in post # 2 ) are extremely problematic. There is more to this than the surface ; e.g. 'Lust' (and, by the way, not 'The Lust' ) as used on Atu XI in the Thoth has its own meaning in context to that process ... one can try to put previously understood meaning of the word on to the magical term, but eventually one must learn more and develop a more specific and contextual understanding.
 

RViewer

Perplexing Paths

The intent of some paths is simply at odds with living an open feeling life based on something other than the operation of lust as a replacement for strength. The creator of this system of Magick would have been quite content to deal with any of the Scarlet Ladies that you are describing. However he always placed himself in the role of the dominator. So I think I understand where you might be experiencing some negative blowback.

But if you seek advice and clarification with those who practice sex magick you might continue to receive results other than what you seek. Lets see what the 3 here can offer to shed light on these finer points that understandably serve to confuse many. This is from a poem written and enjoyed by Crowley throughout life and read at his funeral (taken out of context is how I believe they will classify it):

…I am numb
With the lonely lust of devildom.
Thrust the sword through the galling fetter,
All-devourer, all begetter…
I rave; and I rape and I rip and I rend
Everlasting, world without end…

He writes elsewhere: "This is Babalon, the true mistress of The Beast; of Her, all his mistresses on lower planes are but avatars." In a footnote to Liber Reguli, Crowley mentions that of the “Gods of the Aeon” the Scarlet Woman and the Beast are “the earthly emissaries of those Gods.” He then writes in Commentaries that "....the Scarlet Woman is an officer replaceable as need arises."-----End of Crowley speak-----

AC was married twice and both wives went insane. At least five of his known mistresses committed suicide. He died nearly penniless, fighting a heroin addiction and leaving a path of abuse and exploitation that some continue to resonate with, emulate, and tirelessly promote. It seems they even view it as the answer to the long enforced repression of the church even though it appears to be nothing more than the extreme opposite swing of the same pendulum leading to a whole other level of weakness and confusion.

Those oriented toward exploiting others rely on keeping their true intentions hidden. Few willing victims will present themselves to the black magician who says something like “I am out to take everything I can from you and provide you with ignorance and darkness in return.” Instead they attempt to create a shell game of sorts where they appear to be offering some form of external system to you by which if you play along you will somehow become stronger. The fact that their exploitation of you requires you to be weak ensures that they will do everything in their power to misdirect your attention and awareness away from anything moving toward your own strength. They only strive to dim consciousness and foster dependence as this is the required ingredient for their continued manipulations and exploitations.

One way to start to find the type of healthy relationship you may want to be a part of is to distance yourself from ideas and forces that are subverting your will to do so. Once you gain any amount of increased clarity it may become quite easy for you to spot those who you do not wish as well as begin to attract into your life those that you do.
 

ravenest

The intent of some paths is simply at odds with living an open feeling life based on something other than the operation of lust as a replacement for strength.

Lust doesn't replace strength. Lust in this context, as a magical formula, is something different from strength. Even in the depictions of Strength, dont forget, a woman holds the lions mouth open (and there are some good posts around about that as well).

In my view, the strength of Strength equates to something like Ki or Chi ... or 'female' strength; only heroic characters like Hercules and Sampson open the lion's jaws with 'brute strength' . And this model is intrinsically tied up in mythology as the ego's approach to initiation, it is the inverse of the shamanic model, and it doesnt work ( read up on how those guys ended up ... Hercules had to wear womens dress for while). The sort of Strength I see in the card is more like a 'Lion whisperer'. There is the inner strength and the outer strength.

Lust (again in context) is that force that drives one forward in the same way as there is an outer and inner understanding. We have psychological drives , we need to master them - maybe they have 7 heads? We have career and comfort drives, spiritual ones ... but Lust is about a magical process that invigorates oneself to pursue that cause - enthusiasm. It is what causes people to produce seemingly miraculous things ... or feats of skill or bravery. To write, create or build, ceaselessly, all through the night or for days on end, sometimes with multiple projects. Its the world of not just genius but inflamed genius.

Or to put it simpler; the lust for life.
The creator of this system of Magick would have been quite content to deal with any of the Scarlet Ladies that you are describing.

If you mean Crowley, I dont see him as the creator of this system - a rehasher in some cases and an eclectic collator, adapter and comparer. He himself said he was assuming we already knew of what he wrote but was trying to present it in a new and novel way.
However he always placed himself in the role of the dominator.
:) Really ? Perhaps you haven't looked into his explorations of his own 'psychological drives'.

Lets see what the 3 here can offer to shed light on these finer points that understandably serve to confuse many.

Oh ... we will probably disagree with each other and argue about it for a bit ;)
…I am numb
With the lonely lust of devildom.
Thrust the sword through the galling fetter,
All-devourer, all begetter…
I rave; and I rape and I rip and I rend
Everlasting, world without end…

Yes, shocking isnt it . When I have used that Hymn I change the last 3 r s all to the first r and just say that 4 times ;) ... actually, feel free to recite that at my funeral - past tense of course.

He writes elsewhere: "This is Babalon, the true mistress of The Beast; of Her, all his mistresses on lower planes are but avatars." In a footnote to Liber Reguli, Crowley mentions that of the “Gods of the Aeon” the Scarlet Woman and the Beast are “the earthly emissaries of those Gods.” He then writes in Commentaries that "....the Scarlet Woman is an officer replaceable as need arises."-----End of Crowley speak-----

"In her, all power is given." - also 'Love is the Law" and nothing can unite the divided but love ... love can move on ... people get divorced ... as need arises.

But anyway that is a basic dualist pagan arrangement - God : Goddess, Priest : Priestess, Husband : Wife, Man : Woman. But here the woman is 'on top' and in her is all power given. But the magician is Mercurious and Hermaphrodite and the mediating principle.

As said above, best to see these dynamics within the self.

AC was married twice and both wives went insane. At least five of his known mistresses committed suicide. He died nearly penniless, fighting a heroin addiction and leaving a path of abuse and exploitation that some continue to resonate with, emulate, and tirelessly promote.

Thats all been posted about for and against, fact and faction elsewhere in this sub-forum.
It seems they even view it as the answer to the long enforced repression of the church even though it appears to be nothing more than the extreme opposite swing of the same pendulum leading to a whole other level of weakness and confusion.

This tradition, of which Crowley was a node, stands for the exact opposite; an opposition to the enforced regression of the church leading to a new level of independant strength. That swing the other way into repression is because the system's magical principles were lost and we ended up with materialistic capitalism/industrialisation. I mean , its basic esoteric history - the Enlightenment, the French revolution, the founding of the USA .
Those oriented toward exploiting others rely on keeping their true intentions hidden. Few willing victims will present themselves to the black magician who says something like “I am out to take everything I can from you and provide you with ignorance and darkness in return.” Instead they attempt to create a shell game of sorts where they appear to be offering some form of external system to you by which if you play along you will somehow become stronger. The fact that their exploitation of you requires you to be weak ensures that they will do everything in their power to misdirect your attention and awareness away from anything moving toward your own strength. They only strive to dim consciousness and foster dependence as this is the required ingredient for their continued manipulations and exploitations.

Agreed, but surely we know where that is coming from ... it isnt from a handful of Thelemites, whatever warped version of things they are following, its the current global political/industrial complex, the 'economic-rationalist' paradigm .... Mammon .

No, its not secret Masons or Illuminati ... they are quiet visible and outwardly run corporations governments, militias and NGOs.
One way to start to find the type of healthy relationship you may want to be a part of is to distance yourself from ideas and forces that are subverting your will to do so. Once you gain any amount of increased clarity it may become quite easy for you to spot those who you do not wish as well as begin to attract into your life those that you do.
Yep, good advice.