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Two of pentacles...change change change

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rcb30872  rcb30872 is offline
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Exactly! One of the main principles of science, or at least Physics, is that YOU CANNOT CREATE OR DESTROY ANYTHING!

It is just recycled, or at least a changed form. For instance, if you heat something up, that is energy, so that energy is then converted to say kinetic energy, make the molecules and atoms to move around faster, thus changing the substance from a solid to liquid, or liquid to gas. Nothing is lost, just changed its form!

Sure, like what we are saying about entropy, I got kind of lost with what similia and Aeon was saying, because it made no sense! Just because there is a constant movement going inside a solid object, doesn't mean that there is degradation, it is a natural process. I mean, it is the same principal of what I said in regards to the pool, snooker or billiards game, just imagine that happening with a substance. Since a solid has the molecules tightly packed, you can just imagine that this ping ponging thing going on all the time, with a liquid, not so much, and with a gas, well, I guess it depends the size of the space, like it is really large space, the chances of hitting another molecule would be very, very low!

Just because something is "gone" it is never truly gone, just changed form!



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What you are describing here is momentum- transferring energy. the second object takes on the speed of the object that struck it in a continuum. Exactly the energy does not dissipate, its it transferred to the next object.

I so totally agree, that energy does not dissipates, it becomes something else, and all energy returns to its source...maybe in another form. Its kind of like the understanding that when you turn off a light, the electricity does not disappear, its just no longer in contact with that source (for the moment).

Thanks for reposting I had over looked your post, I got lost reading the other post and started skimming past the words. I love the comments here- gives me a lot to think about. Especially your post reminds me of the concept of momentum, and how when I first saw heard it, or understood it, I was watching one of those crime shows on tv, where a standing car was hit by a moving car...something in that explanation captured my attention- it captivated me, I wrote it in my journal, knowing that one day it would be very important for me to understand and comprehend this law of physics. I cant think of the real name of it, but I know "momentum" is in the title.

How it correlates with the two of disk goes back to what ravenest points out, everything is in constant motion, inertia is the point o point in which an object rotates around its self and a very important point in the object become "static" or our lives "stability" = so lets say that the ball hits nothing, and it energy is revolving around itself, eventually it becomes static (stable)...but if something happens from the outside of inside where the balance is lost, perhaps the focus has changed, or it tilts a little here or there, it begins to wobble and juggle- all the same forces that were just a few moments ago in balance and static, something gave maybe a nail, maybe a thought, maybe a lack of attention or something...is making it wobble, making its loose its balance. That is the type of change two of pentacles speaks about, instead of seeing or dealing with as one ball we become aware that there are two balls, now what made us aware of all the things in motion...dunno, maybe inner or outer, but we know we know need to add something to more to make it more stable, ---we have grown, because our awareness of the other has grown and maybe we need a third leg to support this?

Well I am confusing myself now. Time to stop typing. Its like Adam and Eve becoming aware of being naked...or a baby suddenly realizing not the only thing his mother has to worry about, we move from two to make stability for growth.
The two of pentacles is the juggle that gets us there.
The two of cups is the awareness of another that might get us there,
the two of wands is the awareness of another reality that might get us there, the two of swords is the silence in the gap that might get us there (which reflects back to the "being still and stilling of the mind",

I know understand all these as the gap card ---supporting growth. So to me its change supporting growth/ stability. As oppose to the wheel which is cyclic change and death with is transformation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rcb30872
I am not sure if this can be correlated to the 2 of Disks or not, but I was pondering this earlier on.

Say, for example, you are playing a game of pool, billiards or snooker. You hit the white ball, that is if you are playing properly , the white ball will move at a speed, distance and direction in relataion to how hard and where you hit the white ball. Then the white ball travels and hit another ball, that ball then moves at a speed, distance and direction in how hard and where the white hits the ball. That could possibly hit another ball, depending on how close any other ball is to the ball that the white ball has hit, and how many balls are actually on the table, thus affecting the probability. This is in effect what they call "cause and affect." I figured it would be easier to put it in that terms, instead of coming up with another example that would be more complicated and personal.

What do you think? Could it correlate to the 2 of Disks?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
I thought one of Crowley's main ideas (in initiation and demonstrated in other areas - eg. 'The Naples Arrangement') is that you end where you began yet you have gained something by the experience -of the circuit or the addition followed by the subtraction
But didn't Crowley admit to dodging 0=2 in the Naples Arrangement with, in his own words, "really diabolical ingenuity"? The infinite is already perfect, but it has to take on the appearance of imperfection in order to realise it's own possibilities. Otherwise it's like watching a sporting event when you already know the final score. It's pointless and boring.

In the metaphorical language of Liber AL, isn't every act of love under will an unveiling of some partial aspect of Nuit by herself? But she can't do it by being herself though, can she?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
But didn't Crowley admit to dodging 0=2 in the Naples Arrangement with, in his own words, "really diabolical ingenuity"? The infinite is already perfect, but it has to take on the appearance of imperfection in order to realise it's own possibilities. Otherwise it's like watching a sporting event when you already know the final score. It's pointless and boring.

In the metaphorical language of Liber AL, isn't every act of love under will an unveiling of some partial aspect of Nuit by herself? But she can't do it by being herself though, can she?
But if one is perfect ... and static, that is one thing. If one then 'takes on the appearance of imperfection in order to realise it's own possibilities', that is something else other than the original state of 'perfection', therefore I declare (diabolically ) that it HAS gained something it did not have before.

Perhaps experience is the force secret and unknown that 'counteracts' entropy?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
But if one is perfect ... and static, that is one thing. If one then 'takes on the appearance of imperfection in order to realise it's own possibilities', that is something else other than the original state of 'perfection', therefore I declare (diabolically ) that it HAS gained something it did not have before.

Perhaps experience is the force secret and unknown that 'counteracts' entropy?
You do realise you are saying you can actually add something to the perfect infinite. If you can that means it was neither perfect nor infinite in the first place.
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Why are we told that the Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs? Did we then suppose the converse? I think that we are warned against the idea of a Pleroma, a flame of which we are Sparks, and to which we return when we 'attain'. That would indeed be to make the whole curse of separate existence ridiculous, a senseless and inexcusable folly. It would throw us back on the dilemma of Manichaeism. The idea of incarnations "perfecting" a thing originally perfect by definition is imbecile. The only sane solution is as given previously, to suppose that the Perfect enjoys experience of (apparent) Imperfection. (There are deeper resolutions of this problem appropriate to the highest grades of initiation; but the above should suffice the average intelligence.)

Aleister Crowley
As a crude example imagine a chess board complete with pieces. You are perfectly free to move the pieces in anyway you like. You are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. The trouble is it's not much of a game. But impose an arbitary limitation called the rules of chess and suddenly an amazingly complex game appears. But has anything been added to our original chess set? No. All that has happened is the imposition of apparent imperfection.

The Naples Arrangement is true in a certain sense, but Crowley did dodge the main issue with "really diabolical ingenuity".
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Ah yes, but I am just speaking in a 'certain sense'. Has anything been added to our chess set? Yes, the rules have been added to make the chess set capable of an experience, the game of chess. It is rather undefined compared to the concrete reality of the chess set but nether the less something has been added.

experience is equally undefined but added to perfection creates the whole point of existence the game of life.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
Has anything been added to our chess set? Yes, the rules have been added to make the chess set capable of an experience, the game of chess.
Nope!

The restrictions on movement (the rules) are not an addition, they are a subtraction from our original state. Previously we were omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent and could move any piece in any manner we liked. In contrast the rules place strict limits on what can and can't be done. They are the imperfection that make the game possible.
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And the possibility of the game is an addition that didnt exist before (even if it came about by restrictions and subtractions).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
And the possibility of the game is an addition that didnt exist before (even if it came about by restrictions and subtractions).
But our starting point (Nuit) is infinite possibilities. So any possible game is already latent within the board itself. Any restriction on the movement of the pieces manifests one particular finite set of possibilities. But you haven't added anything though. It's an unveiling.

It's comparable to the spirit = matter / 2 sides of the same coin thing that we've both gone on and on about.

Here's a relevent quote from Magick Without Tears that could almost be a commentary on the snake in the 2 of Disks.
Quote:
Not too bad an analogy is an endless piece of string. Like a driving band, you cannot tie a knot in it; all the complexities you can contrive are "Tom Fool" knots, and unravel at the proper touch. Always either Naught or Two! But every new re-arrangement throws further light on the possible tangles, that is, on the Nature of the String itself. It is always "Nothing" when you pull it out; but becomes "Everything" as you play about with it, since there is no limit to the combinations that you can form from it, save only in your imagination (where the whole thing belongs!) and that grows mightily with Experience. It is accordingly well worth while to fulfill oneself in every conceivable manner.
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It is all about permations and whatever. I mean look at it this way, I assume that you have lotto, well, there are so many numbers you can chose from, and you have an x amount of numbers you can choose, so that would exponentially alter your chance in accordance to this. It doesn't matter how many people are playing, as the odds are the same from one person to another person for that correct combination of numbers to come up. It is the same with a chess board, there are 64 squares, without the rules and regulations in accordance to the chess piece you would have numerous amounts of possibilities to get to one side of the board to another. With the rules and regulations there are still quite a few possibilities, but those possibilities are reduced when you impose the rules and regulations to the various chess pieces.

http://www.achieverspoint.com/forums...&t=1067&p=2034

That is probably only going to confuse matters, but the above link is about the mathematical side of things.

I mean, say you have a choice of several things in regards to a particular situatiuon, in accordance to which choice you make, you would have another number of things to choose from. If you take it back right from the beginning, then there would you see how many paths you could have taken!

If this is off topic, I am sorry, but I was just hoping to emphasise the point that was previously made. I am also sorry if I have confused you even more!



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