3ill.yazi
I'm just starting to learn to use TdM, and I have to admit that I still visualize the RWS scenes when reading the pips.
Learning to Love the Pips
Richard
If it works for you, why not? Some TdM users are ex RWS users. They may (like some fanatical ex smokers, ex drinkers, and ex carnivores) be on a passionate mission to convince the rest of the universe that the use of anything RWS-like will (metaphorically) put you in league with the devil. You certainly should investigate different TdM reading methods if you wish, but pay the fanatics no heed. They are a noisy nuisance, no more than that.
Ever notice that almost all of the TdM trumps are basically the same as those of the RWS? Horror upon horrors! That infernal fiend A. E. Waite stole his trumps from the TdM and twisted them into the trumps of hell. 
Sherryl
Finally, I feel the same way about odd and even numbers, although unlike, say, Jodorowsky, I wouldn't want to understand even numbers as feminine and odd numbers as masculine: personally I see it as kind of stereotypical . But yes, considering whether a card is odd or even adds an extra layer for me too (as if we hadn't enough
I got many of my ideas about number from the book Medieval Number Symbolism by Vincent Foster Hopper. I think that's where I came across the concept that even numbers are about enmeshment in the material world and the cycles of time because you can keep on dividing even numbers forever. Odd numbers are about transcendence. I see the odd vertical baton pulling itself up by its bootstraps from the morass of the previous card. With coins, I see the odd central coin emerging from the matrix of the previous even card like a seed emerging from a pod.
Or something else entirely depending on the context.
blue_fusion
I had to learn tarot via the Marseilles route because those were the only cheap decks back then. What worked for me was drawing up a chart - columns as suits and their elemental correspondences, rows as numbers. In many ways, it's like those methods of memorization we used in school.
Each element/suit has its own theme, and each number also has its own (numerological) theme. So you just combine them and think of the implications (a method which still leaves a lot of room for creative reflection). I got that from a Rachel Pollack book ages ago.
For example, aces, twos, threes cover the themes beginnings, continuing, and end (product/fruit). Cups are more about emotions, relationships with people, etc. What would 2 of cups imply then? Something like that. And you stare at the abstraction of the pips until your eyes cross.
Each element/suit has its own theme, and each number also has its own (numerological) theme. So you just combine them and think of the implications (a method which still leaves a lot of room for creative reflection). I got that from a Rachel Pollack book ages ago.
For example, aces, twos, threes cover the themes beginnings, continuing, and end (product/fruit). Cups are more about emotions, relationships with people, etc. What would 2 of cups imply then? Something like that. And you stare at the abstraction of the pips until your eyes cross.
Wendywu
I use elemental associations and I used to also use a dollop of numerology. I have now abandoned the numerology and am working my way through EnriqueEnriquez' Marseilles Seekers threads (posted back in 2008) and doing the the exercises. I love the freedom (and yet there is definite technique) that his method brings me. I can remember going "aaaah" back in 2009 when I first got his pdf and thinking that this made total sense to me but for some reason I didn't take it any further. I just read it, nodded in complete agreement and ...... ignored it!
A couple of years ago I got Jean Michel David's book and did the exercises in that (it is based on his 30 week course) and found it hugely valuable but even so, now that I am actually doing the eye rhyme exercises - I have found what I think will be my chosen method of reading TdM from now on.
A couple of years ago I got Jean Michel David's book and did the exercises in that (it is based on his 30 week course) and found it hugely valuable but even so, now that I am actually doing the eye rhyme exercises - I have found what I think will be my chosen method of reading TdM from now on.
nisaba
I thought I'd always need illustrated pips until six or seven years ago. Unillustrated pips were just boring. Then I got Scapini's Stained Glass deck, and they were lush and gorgeous - and unillustrated!
I loved the deck so much that I *had* to find a way in, dammit! <punches deck, makes laptop jump>
So I sat down one day, took one word to symbolise the theme of the numbers one-to-ten, took another word to symbolise the qualities of each of the Elements, and then looked at each mix of two words, and came up with a single idea that encapsulated that. They became my idiosyncratic meanings.
Since then, they've blurred down: too much time here listening to other people, I suppose, and starting to trust myself when I look at one of these cards, and my thoughts go off-message from my own fixed meaning and wander everywhere.
Nowdays, that wandering is the most valuable part of reading with either Marseilles, Visconti or modern decks with unillustrated pips - I feel slightly cheated of I get all Majors and Courts out in a spread! I like watching my mind wander through the universe to grab something unusual, and watch a client's face when they say "how did you know?" <cackle>
If you want to learn how to love unillustrated pips, pick up a deck that is gorgeous and irresistible and seems to have been designed for you personally - and has unillustrated pips. You'll find a way to read with it, you really will. Trust me! <saunters off, whistling, her Stained Glass deck banging away in her pocket>
I loved the deck so much that I *had* to find a way in, dammit! <punches deck, makes laptop jump>
So I sat down one day, took one word to symbolise the theme of the numbers one-to-ten, took another word to symbolise the qualities of each of the Elements, and then looked at each mix of two words, and came up with a single idea that encapsulated that. They became my idiosyncratic meanings.
Since then, they've blurred down: too much time here listening to other people, I suppose, and starting to trust myself when I look at one of these cards, and my thoughts go off-message from my own fixed meaning and wander everywhere.
Nowdays, that wandering is the most valuable part of reading with either Marseilles, Visconti or modern decks with unillustrated pips - I feel slightly cheated of I get all Majors and Courts out in a spread! I like watching my mind wander through the universe to grab something unusual, and watch a client's face when they say "how did you know?" <cackle>
If you want to learn how to love unillustrated pips, pick up a deck that is gorgeous and irresistible and seems to have been designed for you personally - and has unillustrated pips. You'll find a way to read with it, you really will. Trust me! <saunters off, whistling, her Stained Glass deck banging away in her pocket>
Barleywine
So true. My "aha!" moment occurred a couple of days ago when I opened up the Fournier Marseille. I know it has its detractors (not authentic enough) but everything about it sings to me like that old Who song "Hold me! Squeeze me . . ." (sorry, sometimes I get carried away
) In truth, I've been using "semi-naked" pips for many years. The Thoth has no pictorial scenes as we've come to know them, although Crowley and Harris added flourishes and embellishments to suit his unique vision (but tell me, how else would I ever have known what a Dorje is?) It does offer lots of "cheats," though; titles, astrological symbols, geometric (and sometimes geomantic) arrangements, expressive colors, repeated motifs like flowing (and stagnant) water, drops of blood, flames and lightning, crystalline structures, lotus petals and tarted-up renditions of the usual devices (ornate cups, individualized wands, etc.). Not to mention that rather peculiar Ace of Disks . . .Elemental associations and a "dollop of numerology" were also essential keys to the Thoth's "augmented" pips, as well as color symbolism and Tree of Life correspondences (which really helped me grasp Crowley's negative take on the 7's and 8's as being low on the Tree and off the middle pillar.) I know I will port some of this over to the Marseille, but I intend at first to just let the images seep into my consciousness. I will probably start doing again what I began with my wife's old Classic: do a spread with the Thoth and interpret it, then lay the Marseille cards along side and do some intuitive "imprinting." One thing for sure is that learning this deck is going to be very instructive and a lot of fun!
Louis Cyphre
That one is also my favorite and first one.
But the pips and memorizing... I don´t know... It sounds difficult. =(
kalliope
I keep trying with the TdMs, but definitely experience the pips as a stumbling block, although I occasionally have readings where it seems to click. I think the clicking is due to easy combinations of cards, though, it's not reliable for me. I agree that the numerology + suits can seem mechanical in the sense that I might as well just be hauling out the memorized RWS meanings at that point.
I've read about the eye rhymes, looking for movement and patterns between cards, etc. My problem is that while I can talk about lots of visual stuff I see going on, I have a hard time converting those descriptions into meanings that are useful.
Okay, so that flower seems to become that disk over there, which becomes the shield in the last card. That cup is being surrounded by the vegetation, that mass of woven batons looks intimidating. The energy of the cards seems to go from high to low to high, the flower between the swords appears serene. All of the figures are looking at something red, or down and to the left. Okay. But what does it all mean?
I suppose I lack imagination!So...I guess I need practice with that part, if there's even any help to be had.
Richard
People like it because you just observe things and use your intuition. You don't have to learn anything. It suits our modern penchant for instant gratification with minimal effort. It seems silly to me, and I trust it about as much as I would a Magic 8-Ball, but that's just me, no reflection on those who do it that way. I like mechanical way better than silly, provided it works (assuming that numerology and astrology are mechanical and not silly.....I've read about the eye rhymes, looking for movement and patterns between cards, etc. My problem is that while I can talk about lots of visual stuff I see going on, I have a hard time converting those descriptions into meanings that are useful.
Okay, so that flower seems to become that disk over there, which becomes the shield in the last card. That cup is being surrounded by the vegetation, that mass of woven batons looks intimidating. The energy of the cards seems to go from high to low to high, the flower between the swords appears serene. All of the figures are looking at something red, or down and to the left. Okay. But what does it all mean?
).