Can Horary be used to answer "why" questions?

RohanMenon

Context: a very old friend (non romantic) of mine is coming half way around the world to visit me. She is usually very upfront and talkative, but this time is keeping the purpose of her visit a mystery. On the face of it the trip doesn't make sense because she is spending barely enough time to recover from jet lag from an 18 hour flight, then turning around and going back a few days later. Since she has small children to take care of, this trip entails significant sacrifice on her part and has some (hidden) significance.

My question is "Why is M visiting me?" . I cast a chart at exactly 14:00 hours in Bangalore, India.

I give tmy friend the 1st house, since on further reflection my real question is "Why is my friend undertaking such an arduous long journey now?"

The 9th house (long journeys) seems to be appropriate as the quesited house, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to interpret the "why" question? Should I use the 8th (mystery) of the 9th? Or would the 9th house and its lord show the 'why'?

I think this is a good question because the truth will be revealed in a week or so , I am genuinely curious and have exhausted all logical reasons, and this is good opportunity to test my horary skills (or lack of them). Assuming of course that horary can be used for 'why' questions.

Any help appreciated.
 

Sebastiane

The 1st house would still represent you since you are the quesited. Your friend would most likely represent the 11th house.
 

Minderwiz

Her motivation is the quesited and as it directly relates to you,you have to take the first and she gets the eleventh (friends). The long journey is incidental, though it gives some indication of the strength of the motivation.

You would start from Lord 11 to judge her motivation from the essential dignities at the zodiacal degree where loved 11 is placed. Accidental dignities may indicate additional information.

Did you cast the chart yesterday (27th)?

PS, as phrased you refer to her as M and omit the word 'friend' in the first version and use the word 'friend' in the second. I'd probably settle for the seventh in version one as she is a named person but not without discussing that with you first. From your description, it seems to be friendship that counts most here.
 

Minderwiz

The Chart

If the chart was cast yesterday, 27th October 2016

The first thing I checked was the degree of the Ascendant, late, but not too late. The second was the Moon's degree and at 27 degrees the Moon is Void of Course.

So it's very doubtful if anything will come of this question; but rather than leave it, there's some observations that might warrant a second chart.

I follow Sahl, rather than Lilly, so my chart is based on Whole Sign Houses.

You are signified by Saturn. Saturn is in the eleventh house of friends, so you are concerned with a friend (True)

She is signified by Jupiter ruler of the eleventh house (Sagittarius) and Jupiter is placed in the ninth house of long distance travel (Something that concerns you, given the shortness of her stay).

Jupiter is in Libra and that indicates her concerns. We could look at this from two perspectives. The first is yours, as you asked the question and we have to take the chart from that perspective, unless there's good reason to change it.

So her first concern, is travel (Jupiter is in the ninth)

And this is where it gets a little interesting. The ruler of the ninth is Venus and its placed in the eleventh house of friends. What is more Venus is closely applying to a conjunction with Saturn (you). So you figure first in her motivation.

And now it gets very interesting. The exaltation ruler of Libra is Saturn (you) and this would show her second priority. So number one is travel, number two is you.

The triplicity ruler in a Day chart is Saturn - you again.

Jupiter is in the terms of Mercury - I'll come back to that in a moment.

Jupiter is in the Face or Decan of Saturn - you again. It's very, very important that she sees you.

Mercury is in the tenth house of Scorpio and is conjunct the Sun. Indeed from a Medieval perspective, it's Cazimi - in the heart of the Sun. A powerful position.

In this chart, Mercury is Lord 8. Although the eighth is often associated with death, it is more frequently concerned with other meanings, such as your spouse or partner's money (partner here can be any partner, including a business partner).

Mercury also rules the fifth house which normally would have a first meaning of children and thereafter fun and leisure. I would probably take it to signify your children, if you have any, otherwise children in a wider sense.

The Bound or Terms ruler is not a top priority but it's worth noting if only because everything else points to travel and especially you.

It's also worth noting that Jupiter is in a mutual reception with its ruler, Venus and in an almost exact sextile. Now that means that Jupiter is also applying to a sextile with Saturn but as Venus is further on in the zodiac, if only by just over half a degree, and also faster that Jupiter, it suggests that she needs to see you urgently and travel is the only way.

Apart from the Moon, all significators are well placed, fast and direct. I've also noticed that the Moon is on the Antiscion (that's similar to a conjunction) of your Lot of Spirit - how you affect and influence the environment. So I suspect there's something that she wants you to do for her, or some advice she needs from you.

But that VoC Moon, which is also slow, suggests that whatever she is coming for may end up coming to nothing. As you say we will see.

I'd also suggest doing another chart on the same question, What is my friend's motivation for coming to see me? and see if you get anything else.
 

RohanMenon

I cast the Chart on the 25th

Sorry about that. I thought I'd mentioned the date, but I see I haven't. Mea Culpa totally.

Repeating,

Date: 25th October 2016 Tuesday, 14:00 hours, for Bangalore, India

The Moon is not VOC at this time, but the rest of the planets are similar to the chart you cast, which makes sense since most don't move much in two days. The ascendant is still Aquarius (using Tropical zodiac) etc. Mercury is combust, not yet Cazimi. (*Exactly* cazimi Mercury came up when I was trying out one of Lilly's techniques from Vol 2, of which I'll post later.)


I have to step out right now for a couple of hours, but when I come back, I'll go through your interpretation line by line and see what I can learn. From a quick glance, everything you say resonates!

Thank you for your effort. sorry again for not posting the date! The chart for the 25th removes the VOC Moon and maintains the planets mostly as in your chart for the 27th, so not surprising.

More when I get back.
 

RohanMenon

Ok here are the mistakes I made (so others can learn from them)

The first mistake I made is to assign the querent to my friend.

My rationale was "Though my question is why is M undertaking such a long journey to visit me, my real concern is about her journey, so this question is actually just "Why is M making such a long trip?" . In which case it makes sense to assign M to the 1st, and examine the 9th house Lord as the quesited significator.

But in retrospect this is wrong. The reason I'm concerned about M's visit is that she is coming to visit *me*. As a thought experiment, if she were coming to India for a few days of trekking in the Himalayas, I wouldn't even ask this question.

As Minderwiz said in another thread

"Turning the chart is best kept to a minimum or avoided if possible, that's why we give X the first house in a question about X's relationship with Y, even when we have asked the question, providing we are not a direct participant in the question."

but here I *am* a direct participant in the question, since she is visiting me.
Hence it makes sense to have me as querent and her as quesited and since she is a good friend, and we've known each other for decades, she obviously gets the 11th.

Lesson learned: Think about the question, but don't overcomplicate it. If the question involves me, I'm the querent. If I were to ask "why is M really traveling to Machu Pichu?" then she'd be the 1st House and 9th house Lord would be quesited. Ok got it.

Most importantly, as Minderwiz's analysis shows "why" questions *can* be answered by horary, at least to the extent that you can correctly decode the planetary symbolism. Hooray! (This is mindboggling. Much to think about)

some thoughts

Minderwiz said

"You are signified by Saturn. Saturn is in the eleventh house of friends, so you are concerned with a friend (True)"

So essentially one is taking the querent's significator (here Saturn) and using its house location (11th) to confirm the question. Wow! Is this a standard technique? In which case, at least in theory, we can deduce the question itself from the moment it is asked in? Whoa!!

"She is signified by Jupiter ruler of the eleventh house (Sagittarius) and Jupiter is placed in the ninth house of long distance travel (Something that concerns you, given the shortness of her stay).
"

as above. More 'confirmation' form the chart.

"Jupiter is in Libra and that indicates her concerns. We could look at this from two perspectives. The first is yours, as you asked the question and we have to take the chart from that perspective, unless there's good reason to change it."

I think I understand this, but not completely
What is happening here is that since that I have the first house and since we are intepreting Jupiter in the 9th in Libra, we conclude that her first concern is travel. I get this.

What I don't get is, how to look at the chart from *her* perspective.

My best guess. Make her house the first, see where my significator stands relative to that house and that is the central issue chart from her pov. So since she is in the 9th, and I am in the 11th, from her pov the central concern is a 3d house one. (this is tricky in a quadrant house system like I use (Placidus) , but easy in a whole sign house system like Minderwiz uses). So something about communication, or any other 3d house signification. Did I get this right?

"And this is where it gets a little interesting. The ruler of the ninth is Venus and its placed in the eleventh house of friends. What is more Venus is closely applying to a conjunction with Saturn (you). "

Ahh this is interesting. After we examine the house occupied by her significator, we now look at the lord of that house. Here Venus. who happens to be in the house of friends *and* applying to conjunct my (querent) significator. With enough prodding, I'd probably have noticed this in time, but I would be at a loss at how to interpret this.

Which Minderwiz does easily.

"So you figure first in her motivation."

Very interesting. and very obvious *once Minderwis said it* ! ha!

"And now it gets very interesting. The exaltation ruler of Libra is Saturn (you) and this would show her second priority. So number one is travel, number two is you."

whoa hold on where did Libra come from? (looks at Chart). Ahh we are shifting from the *house* her significator occupies (9th) to the sign (Libra).
Minderwiz instantly sees another connection. The exaltation lord of Libra (and so Jupiter, who is in Libra) is Saturn, who is the querent's significator.

"
The triplicity ruler in a Day chart is Saturn - you again.
"

yet another connection.

"Jupiter is in the Face or Decan of Saturn - you again. It's very, very important that she sees you."

I think the 'very important' comes from the fact that this is the third connection to Saturn, and not so much the 'decan'.

So to summarize if we look at the house the quesited significator(here Jupiter representing my friend) is in,the domicile lord (and any aspect to it- here Venus applying to conjunction with querent significator), then the other essential dignities of the quesited significator, the repeated connections to the querent significator jump out at you.

Lesson Learned: Even If I had chosen the 11th as the quesited house, I'd probably have turned the chart to get "my friend's(11th) journey's (9th from 11th) purpose (10th from 9th from 11th) . All this is unnecessary.

What is needed is to look at the essential and accidental dignities, and any important aspects and *interpret correctly* (here in terms of 'why')

Minderwiz identifies Mercury (Term Ruler of Jupiter) as cazimi, but this is because I didn't give him the correct date (25th) and he assumed 27th (which is when I started this thread). Mea Culpa.

In the original chart, Mercury is combust, not Cazimi. I'm not sure how much this affects the reading. Probably not much, since term is a relatively minor dignity.

However Mercury being Lord of 8th and being in combustion *is* significant. I'll PM Minderwiz about this, since it is not something I want to discuss in public.

"It's also worth noting that Jupiter is in a mutual reception with its ruler, Venus and in an almost exact sextile. Now that means that Jupiter is also applying to a sextile with Saturn but as Venus is further on in the zodiac, if only by just over half a degree, and also faster that Jupiter, it suggests that she needs to see you urgently and travel is the only way.

Apart from the Moon, all significators are well placed, fast and direct. I've also noticed that the Moon is on the Antiscion (that's similar to a conjunction) of your Lot of Spirit - how you affect and influence the environment. So I suspect there's something that she wants you to do for her, or some advice she needs from you."

This is completely amazing.
I realize now that I don't know how to interpret an astrological factor (antiscion, Venus is farther and faster than Jupiter etc) even if I notice it.
A long way to go, much to learn.
Back to Lilly with a vengeance.

Thanks a million Minderwiz. Very educational!
 

Minderwiz

So essentially one is taking the querent's significator (here Saturn) and using its house location (11th) to confirm the question. Wow! Is this a standard technique? In which case, at least in theory, we can deduce the question itself from the moment it is asked in? Whoa!!

The chart should enable you to describe the situation and then draw out the answer. Whilst not enabling you to find the precise question, it should enable you to recognise the reality.

If the chart doesn't describe the situation and fit with 'reality' then somewhere or other there's a problem. it might be that you've missed one of the considerations before judgement; It might be that the 'reality' described by the querent is either wishful thinking or in error. I've had a lot of relationship charts that don't indicate any strong feelings between the couple, despite being to assured that he/she says she has feelings for me or even that the querent doesn't really have much interest in the quesited.

RohanMenon said:
"She is signified by Jupiter ruler of the eleventh house (Sagittarius) and Jupiter is placed in the ninth house of long distance travel (Something that concerns you, given the shortness of her stay).
"

as above. More 'confirmation' form the chart.

"Jupiter is in Libra and that indicates her concerns. We could look at this from two perspectives. The first is yours, as you asked the question and we have to take the chart from that perspective, unless there's good reason to change it."

I think I understand this, but not completely
What is happening here is that since that I have the first house and since we are intepreting Jupiter in the 9th in Libra, we conclude that her first concern is travel. I get this.

What I don't get is, how to look at the chart from *her* perspective.

I intended to look at the question from her point of view (using the eleventh as the first house) but not till I got a confirmed date. I should have put that in the post but forgot (probably premature senility)

If you look at the adjusted chart for the 25th you will find some small differences. The Moon is in early Virgo not late Virgo and Mercury is still applying to the conjunction with the Sun. The main difference is that the Moon will aspect Venus before Venus aspects firstly Jupiter and then Saturn. There still may be some translation of light though.

For her; planets in the radical ninth are in her eleventh house. As her significator is there, that signifies that her first priority is her friend (you) and indeed as previously stated Saturn is the Exaltation Lord, so you are very important to her.

Jupiter is a few minutes earlier, but enough to put it back into the Decan of the Moon. So what the Moon signifies is her lowest priority. All you need to do is to find the house which the Moon rules. I use Whole Sign Houses, but as you used Placidus, I wouldn't advise you to change from that house system for this exercise.

RohanMenon said:
My best guess. Make her house the first, see where my significator stands relative to that house and that is the central issue chart from her pov. So since she is in the 9th, and I am in the 11th, from her pov the central concern is a 3d house one. (this is tricky in a quadrant house system like I use (Placidus) , but easy in a whole sign house system like Minderwiz uses). So something about communication, or any other 3d house signification. Did I get this right?

As above her central concern is her friend - you' as the 11th is the house of friends and that is where her significator is.

RohanMenon said:
"And now it gets very interesting. The exaltation ruler of Libra is Saturn (you) and this would show her second priority. So number one is travel, number two is you."

whoa hold on where did Libra come from? (looks at Chart). Ahh we are shifting from the *house* her significator occupies (9th) to the sign (Libra).
Minderwiz instantly sees another connection. The exaltation lord of Libra (and so Jupiter, who is in Libra) is Saturn, who is the querent's significator.

And Jupiter and Saturn have a mutual reception Ruler/Exaltation, as well as an applying sextile. - she really rates you as a friend

RohanMenon said:
I realize now that I don't know how to interpret an astrological factor (antiscion, Venus is farther and faster than Jupiter etc) even if I notice it.
A long way to go, much to learn.
Back to Lilly with a vengeance.

Thanks a million Minderwiz. Very educational!

Lilly will explain Antiscia, and also has words on speed, orientality, etc so you should be able to understand the accidental dignities. Get back to me if you have any issues.
 

RohanMenon

Thank You, Minderwiz,

I followed your analysis from the perspective of my friend's significator, and now I understand what you mean by 'from her perspective'. Amazing.

I plan to completely work through Lilly, and your generous offer of assistance if/when I get stuck is greatly appreciated, and I'll definitely get back to you.

Thanks again.
 

Minderwiz

It was Lilly who first convinced me that the traditional route was the way to go. Although not as deep and philosophical as Morin, he presents practical uses for Astrology tht are not fixated on psychobabble. Indeed his greatest contribution is not in the field f natal astrology at all.
 

RohanMenon

I just finished Morin Book 21

and am getting into Vol 2 of Lilly so I see exactly what you mean.

Morin doesn't do psychobabble, but he spends a lot of time, discussing (and discarding) other astrologers' opinions, and more time trying to align astrology with Catholic theology. While interesting from a historical point of view, this isn't conducive to modern students trying to learn his methods.

that said, the parts of the book where he doesn't do this are very instructive, especially where he illustrates the distinct evaluation of the nature, celestial, and terrestrial (to use his terminology) features of planets with examples. If I may say so, Morin takes a very horary like approach to chart analysis, with emphasis on houses more than celestial state of planets, which, as he correctly points out is the same for everyone born at that time on Earth. So in his scheme, the houses 'determine' ,or, in my interpretation, individualize those energies to specific people via being in specific houses.

I plan to get his Solar Return book next. I'm getting good results from the Sidereal Solar Returns techniques as far as timing goes, but the original books - by Fagan, Bradley, Eshelman etc - were written with a psychological slant, and delineate the mental states of the natives in specific years from the solar returns

. I'd like to get rid of this bit of psychology, and replace with actual events etc. Hopefully Morin's book 23 will teach me how.

I'm also parallelly working Lilly. Just got into Vol 2 and the first technique that he presents.

Chapter 22 - Questions concerning the first house, "whether the querent will live long yea or not"

The essence of the technique seems to be to list the essential and accidental dignities of
(1) The exact zodiacal *point* of the ascendant - which is an interesting technique and new (to me at least)
(2) the Lord of the Ascendant,
(3) The Moon
and then check all three for harsh aspects from lords of 6th, 8th, 12th (and he also mentions 4th, though he doesn't seem to be consistent here) and also to benefic aspects to Jupiter and Venus and angularity and so on. He also gives some specific conditions to watch for. Moon cadent etc.

Now, it strikes me that this is a good technique to judge longevity from the *natal* chart as well. Lilly does say that he uses this technique for people who don't have natal charts/don't know birth times.

the timing techniques that follow seem to make sense only in a horary context, where this question is actually asked at a particular point of time, but the above 'evaluative technique' should apply to natal charts too, since after all the Lord of the Ascendant, the exact point of ascendant, and the Moon would seem to correspond to longevity.

I plan to test this out with some natal horoscopes, while waiting for someone to ask me such a question in a horary context!!

You are quite right that Lilly is refreshing, and very forthright with his techniques. I specially like the fact he doesn't play coy, as many modern writers do.

I wouldn't have ventured into Lilly's books without your encouragement, so thanks again.