Fortune Telling vs. Spiritual Growth

closrapexa said:

Whether that's true or not, it is far more responsibility than I want. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, my readings can only come from the point of view of influences today affecting tomorrow.

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Let me get this straight. If the cards tell you what will happen tomorrow (the traditional use, I may add) that would make it the "unbreachable word of God coming down to us" and it is too much responsibility. But, if you draw a card to tell about "influences today affecting tomorrow," that does not come from God? May I ask who that comes from? May I remind you that the message you are delivering still comes from a Tarot card?

I don´t want to sound harsh, but it seems to me that the answers come from the same place: a tarot card. The only difference is that when you predict the future, then your reputation is on the line. And I understand the difference, but technically, any personal advice you give based on Tarot cards is fortune telling.

DamianStraton said:

Let me get this straight. If the cards tell you what will happen tomorrow (the traditional use, I may add) that would make it the "unbreachable word of God coming down to us" and it is too much responsibility. But, if you draw a card to tell about "influences today affecting tomorrow," that does not come from God? May I ask who that comes from? May I remind you that the message you are delivering still comes from a Tarot card?

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You need not. However, I like to say that my readings are never wrong, and they aren't. However, it doesn't matter what card comes up in a reading, since it is always relevant to my question. It always provides a facet of an issue (since, Kabbalistically, Tarot is a complete spiritual map of the universe). The message, such as it is, does not come from some amorphous being called "Tarot," it comes from a random draw and my own interpretation. This interpretation changes with every draw, every time I look at a card, really. Whether some being has caused a certain card to come up makes no difference to me.

I think the question really hinges on random vs. supernatural (by which I mean all the things mentioned such as God, unity, energy, etc.). To me Tarot is not supernatural, hence I cannot tell the future with it, since it hasn't happened yet. I do not fear for my reputation, as I never spent any energy building it up in the first place.

Besides, tradition is such a vague term. The modern decks derived from the Golden Dawn are settled enough to have their own tradition, which does not necessarily include fortune-telling.

DamianStraton said:

...
My Take: Tarot works both for counseling and fortune telling. I´m just surprised that so many people seem to take pride in not being a fortune teller given that it is the traditional use of the cards.

Thank you everyone, again!

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I'm not sure that anyone is "taking pride" in not being a fortune teller. We're getting into belief systems here, and people tend to feel strongly about them.

As for traditional use, there's evidence to support the view that tarot was originally a game, so I'd say any use is fair game.

DamianStraton said:

Let me get this straight. If the cards tell you what will happen tomorrow (the traditional use, I may add) that would make it the "unbreachable word of God coming down to us" and it is too much responsibility. But, if you draw a card to tell about "influences today affecting tomorrow," that does not come from God? May I ask who that comes from? May I remind you that the message you are delivering still comes from a Tarot card?

I don´t want to sound harsh, but it seems to me that the answers come from the same place: a tarot card. The only difference is that when you predict the future, then your reputation is on the line. And I understand the difference, but technically, any personal advice you give based on Tarot cards is fortune telling.

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DamianStraton said:

Ok, so you are saying that you rather empower your clients to change the future than telling them what the future will be.



So instead of telling your clients "what will happen" you tell them what "positive changes" they can make, so it is no longer fortune telling.

I say it still is fortune telling. You are not predicting the future outright, but you are identifying forces that will have an effect in the future by occult means. When you see forces that are less than desirable, you prescribe changes. The key factor is that those forces that have an effect on what the future will hold are predicted by supernatural methods, i.e., without scientific evidence that the method actually works and that makes it fortune telling.

In fact, the state of New York includes "use of occult powers, to answer questions or give advice on personal matters" in their definition of fortune telling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune-telling)

Like it or not, using Tarot cards to give advice qualifies as fortune telling. And I have NO PROBLEM with that (good thing I don´t live in New York), but fortune tellers who pretend to be something else do. And that is their problem, not mine.

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Apollonia said:

Although in my practice I do both, I think it takes more guts to be a fortune teller than a spiritual guide. Because "self development and spiritual guidance" are so vague, those clients are very unlikely to come back and tell me I was wrong. Every suggestion could be seen as equally valid and adding to the client's development in some way, so there's no skin in the game.

But when I do fortune telling, I'm laying my skills on the line for them to judge my accuracy and the worth of my readings.

As for it being a bunch of BS, it always strikes me as a little odd when someone uses an old tool to do something fairly new and then scoffs at the traditional use. Can't we all just get along? Putting others down doesn't raise you up.

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I agree! If you truly read the cards, as opposed to just using them as a foil to express your own opinions, you're telling a fortune. Even if you prefer to deem it "empowering your sitter" or whatever, you're still saying, if you do this, you will gain the best results. You're predicting what will happen if they do something you've recommended and it's future-telling, if you don't prefer to call it "fortune telling". They're one and the same.

And by the way, the embellishment of saying "nothing is set in stone and if this reading doesn't pan out, it's because you did or didn't continue on the same path you were on" always rubs me the wrong way. If you're afraid to stick your neck out because you're so afraid of making a wrong statement because you don't want to look stupid then just put the cards down and go do something else. Above all, journal about just why it is you're reading the cards at all.

Seriously? So is what we have here a situation where someone rails against someone taking pride in not being a fortune-teller, and then the consensus being that you read fortunes even if you say you don't? Am I using Tarot wrong, is that it? Am I lying to myself? Will someone illuminate me on the correct way? Or maybe I should, in fact, put them down altogether?

closrapexa said:

Seriously? So is what we have here a situation where someone rails against someone taking pride in not being a fortune-teller, and then the consensus being that you read fortunes even if you say you don't? Am I using Tarot wrong, is that it? Am I lying to myself? Will someone illuminate me on the correct way? Or maybe I should, in fact, put them down altogether?

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Railing is someone ranting and raving and throwing stuff in anger. I just made a statement of my opinion. Take pride in not being a fortune teller if you want to but I take pride in being one. Plenty of strong opinions are expressed from the other side too, you know.

Here's a new take on the old joke:

Q: Is tarot better used for fortune-telling or for spiritual self-development?

A: Yes

And here's a quote from Deborah Houlding's horary astrology web-site. Horary is a branch of astrology that deals with the same type of questions as tarot reading. Just substitute "reading" for "chart" and "Tarot" for "Horary" and you have a perfect analogy. If I asked every querent to state their question aloud, I would probably not perform many readings since I firmly believe the following:


". . . remember, if the chart is drawn for a passing whim, a matter of minor irritation or simply out of a curiosity to test its rules, it is unlikely to result in a clear and vibrant chart. Horary works best when responsive to sincere probing of a matter of significance accompanied by a real 'need to know'."

To be honest, the kind of superficial focus she is talking about is one of the reasons I retreat from AT for long periods of time. (Hmm, maybe I need to become a subscriber and get into the "inner sanctum." ) Or maybe I should just write on the black-board (white-board?) 100 times: "I am not an elitist, I am not an elitist, I am not an elitist . . . "

DamianStraton said:

Let me get this straight. If the cards tell you what will happen tomorrow (the traditional use, I may add) that would make it the "unbreachable word of God coming down to us" and it is too much responsibility.
.

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What God do you mean?

.

DamianStraton said:

......My Take: Tarot works both for counseling and fortune telling. I´m just surprised that so many people seem to take pride in not being a fortune teller given that it is the traditional use of the cards.......

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I tried to fill in a bracket for the NCAA men's basketball tournament, and by the second round, almost all of my predictions were incorrect. I don't take pride in not being a fortune teller, it's just that I'm not one. Also, my coordination is not good enough to play basketball worth a darn, but I'm not proud of that either.

My predictions for the Final Four: UConn over Florida, but not by much. Wisconsin will trounce Kentucky (but that may be just wishful thinking ). The National Champions will be (drum roll) Wisconsin.

Disclaimer: You are seriously advised not to wager anything on the basis of my predictions.

LRichard said:

I tried to fill in a bracket for the NCAA men's basketball tournament, and by the second round, almost all of my predictions were incorrect. I don't take pride in not being a fortune teller, it's just that I'm not one. Also, my coordination is not good enough to play basketball worth a darn, but I'm not proud of that either.

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Haha! You should take up horary astrology!

My picks are:

Who will beat What by a bucket at the buzzer.

Who will then trounce I Don't Know by 20 points (take that to the bank!)

Who will then move on to face I Don't Care, who have cruised to the finals by embarrassing Naturally at the Garden.

The National Champion will be (brief tootle on the kazoo) . . . I Don't Care!

(With apologies to Abbott and Costello.)