Fortune Telling vs. Spiritual Growth

Why would a person's reputation be put on the line when it comes to predicting the future and what gives you the authority to say where "messages" come from or not when it comes down to a reader's own personal beliefs, creeds, learning, and/or points of views.

If a reader believes messages come from God when reading Tarot, why not? And that extends to other things like: Ones higher self, the Universe, the Inner child. Who made you judge and jury.

And why are you limiting Tarot Cards to "fortune telling" as though it was something like a "side show carnival".

It seems so narrow minded and disrespectful to those that use it for purposes other than "future predictions".

A Tarot card might be a piece of cardboard with pictures on it, but alone it cant give a "message", "develop spiritual growth" or "predict" can it? A reader is needed as well as a sitter.


And what does it matter where it all comes from - as long as what is given is what is necessary at the time and for the good of all concerned.

DamianStraton said:

Let me get this straight. If the cards tell you what will happen tomorrow (the traditional use, I may add) that would make it the "unbreachable word of God coming down to us" and it is too much responsibility. But, if you draw a card to tell about "influences today affecting tomorrow," that does not come from God? May I ask who that comes from? May I remind you that the message you are delivering still comes from a Tarot card?

I don´t want to sound harsh, but it seems to me that the answers come from the same place: a tarot card. The only difference is that when you predict the future, then your reputation is on the line. And I understand the difference, but technically, any personal advice you give based on Tarot cards is fortune telling.

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DamianStraton said:

Actually, I said “fortune telling”, not "divination". “The scope of fortune-telling is in principle identical with the practice of divination. The difference is that divination is the term used for predictions considered part of a religious ritual, invoking deities…” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune-telling)

So, if you are invoking a deity it is divination. If you are not invoking a deity it is still fortune telling as you are using supernatural means to make predictions.

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No, the SCOPE of fortune telling is not 'in principle identical' with divination at all. It has to do with the intent ... and the idea of invocation, and has a much larger scope. The mechanics or technology ( a tarot layout) may be in principle identical, as far as technique goes.

However I agree with the rest, my point is, if it is divination then there is no Vs .

If there is 'fortune-telling' then there IS a Vs.

My opinion is that 'fortune telling', in the mainstream, is similar to astrology in the mainstream.

One can read in the newspaper about how your day will be or you can study it in depth as a map and guide to development of your self ... I see a Vs there ... and like tarot it has to do with marketing and $$$$$ ... among other things

Barleywine said:

nothing beats the emotional give-and-take/ebb-and-flow of reading for a "live one" looking across the table at you with temerity and hope.

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I see ..... I read 'across the table', in public for 12 years and in public and private for over 30 ... I never once did it to see someone looking across the table at me with temerity and hope .

Has anyone really defined 'spiritual growth,' so we know exactly how it compares to 'fortune telling?'

Maybe 'growth' is not exactly the right word. We already are what we are. It is more a matter of realizing or becoming conscious of who or what we are. This is in accordance with the Socratic dictum, 'Know thyself.' It is not necessarily fortune telling. It is basically introspection, which probes the nature of what we are. It is not an attempt to foretell our destiny, but of realizing what we really are in the here and now.

If anyone wishes to describe this as 'fortune telling,' it is fine with me, but it may miss the nuance of the 'spiritual awareness' aspect.

Grizabella said:

I agree! If you truly read the cards, as opposed to just using them as a foil to express your own opinions, you're telling a fortune. Even if you prefer to deem it "empowering your sitter" or whatever, you're still saying, if you do this, you will gain the best results. You're predicting what will happen if they do something you've recommended and it's future-telling, if you don't prefer to call it "fortune telling". They're one and the same.

And by the way, the embellishment of saying "nothing is set in stone and if this reading doesn't pan out, it's because you did or didn't continue on the same path you were on" always rubs me the wrong way. If you're afraid to stick your neck out because you're so afraid of making a wrong statement because you don't want to look stupid then just put the cards down and go do something else. Above all, journal about just why it is you're reading the cards at all.

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Some time ago I was only about spiritual growth, self-development etc. But with time I've noticed that the border can be very fluid and you cross it when you read for someone else. Some people want to have "fortune-telling", so I'm giving this to them. I don't have the problem with it anymore. I'm very open when I do a reading and it happened few times that I felt it was more "fortune-telling". Now I don't want to make any statement what kind of reading I do, I just do a reading.

DamianStraton said:

Ok, so you are saying that you rather empower your clients to change the future than telling them what the future will be.

So instead of telling your clients "what will happen" you tell them what "positive changes" they can make, so it is no longer fortune telling.

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Right.

I say it still is fortune telling. You are not predicting the future outright, but you are identifying forces that will have an effect in the future by occult means. When you see forces that are less than desirable, you prescribe changes. The key factor is that those forces that have an effect on what the future will hold are predicted by supernatural methods, i.e., without scientific evidence that the method actually works and that makes it fortune telling.

In fact, the state of New York includes "use of occult powers, to answer questions or give advice on personal matters" in their definition of fortune telling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune-telling)

Like it or not, using Tarot cards to give advice qualifies as fortune telling. And I have NO PROBLEM with that (good thing I don´t live in New York), but fortune tellers who pretend to be something else do. And that is their problem, not mine.

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Well, if we define fortune-telling as any reading/advice that uses Tarot, runes and/or other 'occult powers' as defined by the state of New York law, then yes, anybody who reads Tarot will automatically qualify as a fortune-teller.

What I was trying to point out in my initial post is that people often think of fortune-telling in terms of 'fate', things 'predestined to be' and as such 'impossible to change'. That's why, I, personally, am insisting so hard on making the difference between 'telling the fortune (the way it's been predestined)' and 'using Tarot for personal growth (reading the present in order to change the future)' (note that I'm not saying 'spiritual growth' - like Nisaba said, the difference between 'spiritual' and 'mundane' is somewhat obscure). But it's just me.

ravenest said:

I see ..... I read 'across the table', in public for 12 years and in public and private for over 30 ... I never once did it to see someone looking across the table at me with temerity and hope .

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As a professional writer (retired now), I can be a little too enamored of word-play . But the point is, I think, valid. Something can gained by having to articulate for comprehension what you may have overlooked or not fully appreciated during your "inner dialogue."

ETA: Oh, and I suggest that many (if not most) sitters have their "social mask" or "poker face" on. If they have a knot that truly needs unraveling, it would surprise me if they aren't feeling some of these emotions. But you're right; it's not a validation I'm particularly looking for.

Barleywine said:

As a professional writer (retired now), I can be a little too enamored of word-play . But the point is, I think, valid. Something can gained by having to articulate for comprehension what you may have overlooked or not fully appreciated during your "inner dialogue."

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I am not a professional writer, only one who appreciates good writing, but I'm completely lost. It seems this thread is deteriorating into a situation where no matter what anyone says, they will be told they tell fortunes. Is the definition the bothersome thing, then? What does it matter what I call myself, since we can all play Humpty Dumpty and pay our words extra? What exactly is the point being conveyed here?

I, myself, am not a Tarot reader, I'm a friggin prophet. I'm the Oracle of Delphi. Nice to meet y'all, I would like to introduce myself as the Second Coming. Do any of those definitions actually matter?

DownUnderNZer said:

Why would a person's reputation be put on the line when it comes to predicting the future

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You should not do anything you are not comfortable doing.

DownUnderNZer said:

and what gives you the authority to say where "messages" come from or not when it comes down to a reader's own personal beliefs, creeds, learning, and/or points of views.

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I haven't suggested where messages come from at all. Somone said “To me fortune-telling almost deifies Tarot and makes it something great and all-knowing, the unbreachable word of God coming down to us. Whether that's true or not, it is far more responsibility than I want,” I was just quoting that.

DownUnderNZer said:

And why are you limiting Tarot Cards to "fortune telling" as though it was something like a "side show carnival".

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I'm not. I also use it for spiritual growth, meditation, etc.

DownUnderNZer said:

It seems so narrow minded and disrespectful to those that use it for purposes other than "future predictions".

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All I was saying is that when you prescribe changes based on a Tarot spread, you are implicitly predicting the future. Read the thread.

DownUnderNZer said:

A Tarot card might be a piece of cardboard with pictures on it, but alone it cant give a "message", "develop spiritual growth" or "predict" can it? A reader is needed as well as a sitter.

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DownUnderNZer said:

And what does it matter where it all comes from - as long as what is given is what is necessary at the time and for the good of all concerned.

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No arguments there.

ravenest said:

No, the SCOPE of fortune telling is not 'in principle identical' with divination at all. It has to do with the intent ... and the idea of invocation, and has a much larger scope. The mechanics or technology ( a tarot layout) may be in principle identical, as far as technique goes.

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Divination is “the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.” –Merriam-Webster

A fortune teller is “a person who claims to use special powers to tell what will happen to someone in the future : a person who tells people's fortunes” –Merriam-Webster

It seems like they both predict future events. I don´t understand why you say they are not 'in principle identical' in scope.