Picture of a Chinese Pentacle

Bernice said:

There's another post, in another thread somewhere, that wonders if the Coins might actually be mirrors. There are several pics, one shows a lady looking into a mirror - very similar pose to the Queen of Coins (marseille).

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The Queen of Cups of the Sola-Busca deck (1490 ca) makes this interpretation very clear

The image with which Abrac started this thread makes me think of brass / bronze alms dishes (e.g. http://www.brindisiweb.com/arcidiocesi/enti/foto/piatto_spaolo.jpg http://louwersantiques.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6374)

Marco

Paul Huson, in Mystical Origins of Tarot, says mirror, too.

Sorry my book is packed so I can't find the specific reference.

Huson:

The Coin and the mirror are symbols pertaining to the cardinal Virtue Prudence and, as I see it, to the ancient Persian class of Ruzistar , workers.
Many cartomancers believe the Coin, also referred to today as a Pentacle, represents the Pythagorean element earth. Be that as it may, the Virtue Prudence connotes, in addition to the idea of caution, notions of reflection, memory, foresight, communication, and exchange, whether financial or informational. Coins are considered a "feminine" suit in some crd games, and for divination purposes may be associated with things to do with money, materiality, economics and financial matters: the more limited meanings of Prudence in fact.

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Nowhere in my many books on symbols does it say that the Mirror is a reflection of Prudence or Coinage. One does say that a mirror sometimes appears in Western Art as attributes of Pride, Vanity or Lust, but psychologically it represents Truth (the folk saying that a mirror never lies)

The Chinese viewed a round mirror as the heavens; all mirrors as sincerity : the central boss of a metal mirror is the axis and balance between two powers; The Sun Door and the Gate of Heaven.

I personally believe that Prudence did not get a mirror until very late maybe 16th Century???- it was usually with Fortitude. Prudence originally had a Helmet and a Mask, serpent and sieve (maybe why it was thought to be a mirror??
~Rosanne
Edited to add: Interesting thing about Chinese coins and mirrors. I said a round Mirror was the heavens- well a square mirror was symbolic of the Earth. Chinese coins are a round shape with a square hole in the centre. This is the coinage of the Emperor as the son of heaven and Earth.

The mirror of Prudence

Here is a Prudence with mirror by (the school of) Giotto 1305 ca.

Cesare Ripa in his Iconologia writes: "The mirror bids us examine our defects by knowing ourselves".

Marco

Ahh thanks for that Marco- I saw the chapel too! Tsk Tsk as I slap myself!
Rechecked all the books and still no mirror for Prudence that early.....
still Lesson to myself "put Brain into gear before mouth into action"
~Rosanne

Rosanne: Edited to add: Interesting thing about Chinese coins and mirrors. I said a round Mirror was the heavens- well a square mirror was symbolic of the Earth. Chinese coins are a round shape with a square hole in the centre. This is the coinage of the Emperor as the son of heaven and Earth.

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The Squared Circle! Could that be where it originated from - China??

Bee

And I find myself remembering that the mirror is an important symbol in Japanese Shinto. Shinto is the folk religion of Japan. I remember reading a story about an American man who did a Shinto pilgrimage up a certain mountain, thinking that there would be some kind of building on the top. All there was was a rock cairn, on top of which was a mirror that was tilted back, reflecting the sky. The Japanese he climbed with were very VERY affected (effected?) by the sight of the mirror - and something about Shinto clicked into place in his understanding. (something that he was unable to express, I should mention!)

This connects with roppo mentioning somewhere here recently that the Chinese emperor gave the shaman queen of Japan 100 of these mirrors (this many years ago - centuries?)

thinbuddha said:

Well, hold on now. I think that the deniers also look too much like mandalas too. Doesn't mean that there is a direct (physical/cultural exchange). Mandalas, incidentally, are found pretty much everywhere you find people. Perhaps it is more like the collective unconscious that Jung talked about. Couldn't it be that circular patterns are just something that is pleasing to the human eye no matter where that human comes from? I'm not discounting the possibility that there could be a more direct connection- but it has hardly been proven because a couple designs look similar.

-tb

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It may be very difficult, if not impossible, to prove absolutely, it's just my own personal theory. A lot of things have similarities, but those Chinese mirrors look closer than anything I've seen to date.

Hello Abrac,

Well, I'm beginning to think that there's more 'chinese' in the tarot pips than has been previously thought, and not just because the Coins might originally have been mirrors. I'm now wondering about the emblems of the other suits....

Bee

Mamluk cards. They're based on the Mamluk cards.