Homeless Queens and Kings

Ruby Jewel

It may be noted that in assigning the astrological fixed, cardinal and mutable houses to the Kings, Queens and Knights, respectively, that the cardinal kings (Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn), and the fixed and mutable queens (Leo, Sagittarius, Taurus, Virgo, Aquarius and Gemini, Scorpio and Pisces), are left without a castle. So, for example, when one pulls the Queen of Wands, who belongs to the cardinal realm, it never feels quite right to me to leave the other two fire queens, Sagittarius and Leo, out of the Queens' picture...yet, they are not cardinal energies. Would you put a female Sagittarius in the house with the mutable Knight of fire (Sagittarius), or with the cardinal queen of fire, Aries?

Or, does the fixed Scorpio female belong in the 8th house with the fixed water king, Scorpio, or with the cardinal water queen, Cancer in the 4th house?

Does a Cancer male belong with the cardinal water queen, Cancer in the 4th house, or with the water King Scorpio in the 8th house?

I find the houses to be tremendously important in understanding the court card, so, my question for those readers who use this system of assigning astrological houses to the court cards, is regarding which house you might put them in.
 

CosmicBeing

Usually I apply all water signs to cups
all earth signs to pentacles/coins
all fire to wands
All air to swords.

I think this is a great thought you brought up to astrologers who also study tarot. I am not as educated in astrology.

Page
knight
queen
king

If I were to apply it to something....we have cardinal, fixed, mutuable.
I would considered page mutable... because of their role in the kingdom. They are the planners, the students, the educated. They really help the king/queen come up with the best plan to execute their idea.. so page goes with the flow to me...mutuable...either or.

Knight to me is cardinal...they set out the plan/act it out. So a change can happen.

King & queen to me are fixed... they are to maintain order and law in the kingdom. To keep balance in the society on many levels.


Knight of swords = Cardinal Air = libra= 7th
Knight of pentacles/coins= cardinal earth= capricorn= 10th
knight of cups= cardinal water=cancer=4th
knight of wands= cardinal fire= aries= 1st

Queen/king of pentacles= fixed earth= Taurus=2nd
Queen/king of wands= fixed fire= leo=5th
Queen/king of cups= fixed water=scorpio=8th
Queen/king of swords= fixed air=Aquarius=11th

Page of pentacles=mutuable earth= virgo= 6th
page of swords= mutuable air= Gemini=3rd
page of cups= mutuable water=pisces=12th
page of wands=mutuable fire=Sagittarius=9th


That is personally how I would see it.


Then the Ace - 10 might indicate planets and there energy if we were going to go astrological. I mean I never really got too much into the astrology.

Cups= water= Jupiter, moon, Mars= these planets rule houses that are water signs. You can add neptune if you are into using outer planets.
earth, air, fire....look to the planets that rule the houses of those elements.

Anyway that is my two scent on astrology in tarot. That's kinda how I always seen the cards. I do think some books point on their views of what astrological stuff ties into the tarot court cards.

https://trans4mind.com/personal_dev...strology/quadruplicities.htm#01Cardinal_Signs
 

Ruby Jewel

Maybe I assumed a little too much in my post here. Here's the standard layout.

The elements and their assigned suits as you have written here are the correct ones.

Here's the rest.
Kings are the fixed signs in the middle houses Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius....all with an airy nature/energy
Queens are the cardinal signs in the cardinal houses Aries, Cancer, Libra, and Capricorn.....all with a watery nature/energy
Knights are the mutable signs in the mutable houses Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, Pisces....all with a firey nature/energy

I don't want to repeat everything you have written here because you are correct as far as I can tell, but the question I asked is quite specific regarding which houses to put the "homeless" court cards into. There are 12 houses. 8 of the houses go to the knights and kings, and 4 of the houses go to the queens.

For example, there are 3 fire queens (Aries, Sag, Leo), 3 earth queens, and 3 water queens. and 3 air queens, and only 4 cardinal house for the cardinal queens. That leaves 8 queens without a house. My question is in what house do these homeless queens belong?
 

CosmicBeing

Not sure what you asking. So my participation can't go further than this.

I posted what houses go to which court cards above and the corresponding sign.

I don't believe that the king and queens rule different house since they are meant to rule a kingdom together/as a unit.
 

Sharla

It may be noted that in assigning the astrological fixed, cardinal and mutable houses to the Kings, Queens and Knights, respectively, that the cardinal kings (Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn), and the fixed and mutable queens (Leo, Sagittarius, Taurus, Virgo, Aquarius and Gemini, Scorpio and Pisces), are left without a castle. So, for example, when one pulls the Queen of Wands, who belongs to the cardinal realm, it never feels quite right to me to leave the other two fire queens, Sagittarius and Leo, out of the Queens' picture...yet, they are not cardinal energies. Would you put a female Sagittarius in the house with the mutable Knight of fire (Sagittarius), or with the cardinal queen of fire, Aries?

Or, does the fixed Scorpio female belong in the 8th house with the fixed water king, Scorpio, or with the cardinal water queen, Cancer in the 4th house?

Does a Cancer male belong with the cardinal water queen, Cancer in the 4th house, or with the water King Scorpio in the 8th house?

I find the houses to be tremendously important in understanding the court card, so, my question for those readers who use this system of assigning astrological houses to the court cards, is regarding which house you might put them in.

Queen cups = cancer = 4th house
Queen wands = Aries = 1st house
Queen pents = Capricorn = 10th house
Queen swords = libra = 7th house

I'm not seeing no homeless queen here.

King cups = scorpio = 8th house
King wands = leo = 5th house
King pents = Taurus = 2nd house
King swords = Aquarius = 11th house

Im not seeing no homeless kings here.
 

Ruby Jewel

Queen cups = cancer = 4th house
Queen wands = Aries = 1st house
Queen pents = Capricorn = 10th house
Queen swords = libra = 7th house

I'm not seeing no homeless queen here.

King cups = scorpio = 8th house
King wands = leo = 5th house
King pents = Taurus = 2nd house
King swords = Aquarius = 11th house

Im not seeing no homeless kings here.

Where are you going to put Leo and Sagittarius females?
Where are you going to put Taurus and Virgo females?
Where are you going to put Gemini and Aquarius females?
Where are you going to put Pisces and Scorpio females?

Where are you going to put Cancer male?
Where are you going to put Aries male?
Where are you going to put Capricorn male?
Where are you going to put Libra male?

As I see it there are two options for each one: Here is an example with the fire females:
(c/m/f = cardinal, mutable, fixed)

1) All three fire queens (Aries, Leo. Sag) go with Aries in 1st house or

2) with the same c/m/f energy of fire...ie, Sagittarius female goes with Sagittarius Knight in 9th house (both mutable fire); Leo female goes with Leo King in 5th house (both fixed fire)

Only the cardinal Kings, Aries, Libra, Capricorn, Cancer have a problem. Does the cardinal Cancer male go with the fixed water King Scorpio (because that is the water house for kings), or in the cardinal house with the Queen of Cups (because they are both cardinal water).

The simple issue is: which is prevalent: either he's a king first and foremost (and thus goes into the House for water kings), or he's a cardinal water sign first and foremost (and thus goes in the cardinal water house with the Queen of Cup's).

In a nutshell: DOES HE THINK MORE LIKE A CANCER WOMAN, OR A SCORPIO MAN?
 

Ruby Jewel

Not sure what you asking. So my participation can't go further than this.

I posted what houses go to which court cards above and the corresponding sign.

I don't believe that the king and queens rule different house since they are meant to rule a kingdom together/as a unit.

It is a difficult subject to explain clearly....but if you keep reading I think it will become clear.
 

Sharla

Where are you going to put Leo and Sagittarius females?
Where are you going to put Taurus and Virgo females?
Where are you going to put Gemini and Aquarius females?
Where are you going to put Pisces and Scorpio females?

Where are you going to put Cancer male?
Where are you going to put Aries male?
Where are you going to put Capricorn male?
Where are you going to put Libra male?

As I see it there are two options for each one: Here is an example with the fire females:
(c/m/f = cardinal, mutable, fixed)

1) All three fire queens (Aries, Leo. Sag) go with Aries in 1st house or

2) with the same c/m/f energy of fire...ie, Sagittarius female goes with Sagittarius Knight in 9th house (both mutable fire); Leo female goes with Leo King in 5th house (both fixed fire)

Only the cardinal Kings, Aries, Libra, Capricorn, Cancer have a problem. Does the cardinal Cancer male go with the fixed water King Scorpio (because that is the water house for kings), or in the cardinal house with the Queen of Cups (because they are both cardinal water).

The simple issue is: which is prevalent: either he's a king first and foremost (and thus goes into the House for water kings), or he's a cardinal water sign first and foremost (and thus goes in the cardinal water house with the Queen of Cup's).

In a nutshell: DOES HE THINK MORE LIKE A CANCER WOMAN, OR A SCORPIO MAN?

But there is No leo and saggitarius female :confused:

Each Queen will be a part of one element and sign only.

The only queen to go into the 1st house would be the queen wands, there is not other fire queen

How can you have a Queen as a Leo, when its the King wands who's a Leo ?

Around the signs it actually goes in a pattern of Queen, King, Knight, Queen, King, Knight.....

Ive re-read your OP a few times now, and i'm sorry but i don't understand what your asking about.
 

Minderwiz

I've not really touched a Tarot deck in anger for well over ten years. So my Tarot knowledge is sketchy. But my feelings have always been that Astrological correspondences with Tarot cards can only be taken so far - and even Sharla's list, which is probably the best one, goes a little too far. Otherwise you end up pushing the correspondences to a point where they break the spirit of Astrology or Tarot or both.

Maybe I assumed a little too much in my post here. Here's the standard layout.

The elements and their assigned suits as you have written here are the correct ones.

Here's the rest.
Kings are the fixed signs in the middle houses Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius....all with an airy nature/energy
Queens are the cardinal signs in the cardinal houses Aries, Cancer, Libra, and Capricorn.....all with a watery nature/energy
Knights are the mutable signs in the mutable houses Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, Pisces....all with a firey nature/energy


There are at least two confusions here.; Firstly you conflate signs and houses. There's no such thing in Astrology as a cardinal house or a fixed house or even a mutable house. Houses are Angular, succedent and cadent. Only Signs are Cardinal (Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn), Fixed (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius) or Mutable (Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, Pisces). This property of the signs comes from the seasonal variations caused by Earth's rotation around the Sun. The Cardinal signs correspond to the two equninoxes (March and September) and the two solstices (June and December).

The houses are the product of Earth's diurnal movement (its revolution on its axis) which leads to the periods of day and night. The angular houses corresponding to Sunrise, astronomic noon, Sunset, and astronomic midnight. These four points are trisected to produce twelve houses, but these houses are not signs (though through a period of 24 hours, the houses will pass through each sign.

Now what you are describing appears to only deal with signs, and houses are not covered (as they are in Sharla's system).

You link Queens with Cardinal Signs, and then go on to say that these all have
a watery nature. Now you might see Queens as essentially watery but Aries is firy, Libra is airy and Capricorn is earthy. Only Cancer is watery. So you are creating a correspondence which bends the rules of Astrology.

I don't want to repeat everything you have written here because you are correct as far as I can tell, but the question I asked is quite specific regarding which houses to put the "homeless" court cards into. There are 12 houses. 8 of the houses go to the knights and kings, and 4 of the houses go to the queens.

For example, there are 3 fire queens (Aries, Sag, Leo), 3 earth queens, and 3 water queens. and 3 air queens, and only 4 cardinal house for the cardinal queens. That leaves 8 queens without a house. My question is in what house do these homeless queens belong?

As far as I caqn remember, there are only four queens, Wands, Swords, Pentacles/Coins and Cups - where do the other eight come from in your system?

Sharla's list seems to confirm my memory, as she only has four Queens.

Now if you are going to use all the court cards, from Page to King, then there are 16 Court cards and only twelve Signs, something has to go. the obvious step is to drop the page, and keep to Knight, Queen and Kin. But in order to make things fit, you are creating an artificial cut off between Page and Knight.

Cups= water= Jupiter, moon, Mars= these planets rule houses that are water signs. You can add neptune if you are into using outer planets.
earth, air, fire....look to the planets that rule the houses of those elements.

I fully accept that you put this scheme forward as no more than a possibility. So below I'm simply pointing out that forcing correspondences creates real problems

Firstly Jupiter isn't a watery planet. That it rules Pisces is nothing to do with its essential nature. It's a derivation from the Thema Munda - the birth chart of the universe, which seems to have a major influence on rulerships and exaltations. Incidentally Mars rules a Fire sign - Aries - so why do you restrict it to Water? There is an Astrological explanation in that Mars is a nocturnal planet and Water and Earth are nocturnal triplicities. So Mars' rulership of Scorpio wins out - yet historically Mars is a firy planet, the hotest after the Sun. So making it Watery bends the nature of the planet somewhat. Jupiter is airy, the most Sanguine of the planets. Astrology does not award rulerships on the basis of affinity.

I don't think that it's possible to get a complete set of correspondences, not should it be. Tarot and Astrology are different forms of divination. trying to force them together is not a good idea. If anything, Astrology would have influenced Tarot, as it was in full swing in the forteenth Century when Tarot burst onto the European scene but 'influence' is not the same as 'correspondence.'

Even Sharla's system has a problem. making for example the eight sign to have the same meaning as the eighth house (something which you will find in modern Astrology) fails to reflect the indepence of Sign and House. The eigth house will be occupied by every sign during twenty four hours, taking a 'snapshot' for an event, e.g. birth, at one moment, could stop the clock in any one of the twelve signs. If you have Leo in your eighth, it doesn't suddenly take on a Scorpio overlay. It's still Leo from the tip of it's nose to the end of it's tail. If you want to use houses, then I suggest a spread which mimics and astrological chart, with twelve 'clock' placements to represent the twelve house and to which cards can be assigned, through dealing from a shuffled pack, so there's no necessary link between house and planet/sign.

If you are going to use correspondences, do so with great care, remember that the two systems are different but there may be some associations that you can make. That doesn't allow you to redefine either Astrology or Tarot, but it might, just might, give you an insight into one or the other method of divination.

Edited to correct mistake of Leo in your twelfth to Leo in your eighth
 

Ruby Jewel

But there is No leo and saggitarius female :confused:

Each Queen will be a part of one element and sign only.

The only queen to go into the 1st house would be the queen wands, there is not other fire queen

How can you have a Queen as a Leo, when its the King wands who's a Leo ?

Around the signs it actually goes in a pattern of Queen, King, Knight, Queen, King, Knight.....

Ive re-read your OP a few times now, and i'm sorry but i don't understand what your asking about.

In the real world there are Sagittarius and Leo women and my question is regarding whether they go in the 9th house with the mutable Sagittarius Knight, or in the 1st house with the cardinal queens.