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Tarot de Marseille - Marteau Grimaud, informations for collectors

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arcano  arcano is offline
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There are an edition, that we can call original out of doubt, and which is the first published in 1930 by the house BP GRIMAUD -and Paul Marteau- Following editions by sundry reasons such as: ink colours changes, technology advances, stamp laws changes, market atters, etc, etc. and – if you want – many others less believables reasons as changes in: coins, tulip-dices, lys flower. First edition is characteristic by his mayority gentle colours, and his back between and undefined pink-white and a white by contrast. Never vivids colours or hard contrats, white, yellow, reds, bluesky or blue-green pink (flesh). Lines, internal coin ribs, flowers, objects and in lys flowers drawing, are less defined because of ink impression blur or quality reasons. Effectually, thickness is superior to 0.4 mm (+/- 0.44 mm) Wide 63 mm Long 120 mm There are reasons, according to french remarks, that Paris liberation or his occupation had influenced in Lys –tulip, coins –dices change, fact which happen simultaneous with the removal of the April 12, 1890 decree. I don’t know, and it would be remarkable, a sealed edition with a tulip.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenji
I have obtained another 1930's deck with 1890 tax stamp --
but it has THE YELLOW DICE on Le Bateleur & THE TULIP on the 4 of Coins.
So, now it has turned out that THE DICE & THE TULIP appeared as early as 1930's.

And in addition, the deck is extra thick -- nearly 45mm!
Hello Kenji,

I just have obtained a similar deck:
1890 tax stamp, yellow dice and tulip, 45 mm thick and the same cardback as your 1930 copy (see scans from deck 16 of this thread)

Interesting and new for me are the colors:
All blues and green are very much lighter and softer.
Though the scheme-color remains the same, the overall coloring looks quite different from the other early Marteau-Grimaud.
This coloring seems to match in some points the remarks arcano made.

The copyright mark: B.P GRIMAUD PARIS is also much thinner printed

According to Peter Endebrok http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/rrz...s-de/st-f.html
the 1890 tax stamp has been used from 1890 to 1917 and from 1922 to 1940.
What leads you to nevertherless date the deck from 1930?

Best regards
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coredil
Hello Kenji,

I just have obtained a similar deck:
1890 tax stamp, yellow dice and tulip, 45 mm thick and the same cardback as your 1930 copy (see scans from deck 16 of this thread)

Interesting and new for me are the colors:
All blues and green are very much lighter and softer.
Though the scheme-color remains the same, the overall coloring looks quite different from the other early Marteau-Grimaud.
This coloring seems to match in some points the remarks arcano made.

The copyright mark: B.P GRIMAUD PARIS is also much thinner printed

According to Peter Endebrok http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/rrz...s-de/st-f.html
the 1890 tax stamp has been used from 1890 to 1917 and from 1922 to 1940.
What leads you to nevertherless date the deck from 1930?

Best regards
Hi coredil

Please read my previous post:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...1&postcount=31

On the 2 of Coins Marteau put the year "1930".
And I have never seen anything refer to Marteau's TdM in 1920s...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenji
Hi coredil

Please read my previous post:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...1&postcount=31

On the 2 of Coins Marteau put the year "1930".
And I have never seen anything refer to Marteau's TdM in 1920s...
Thanks for your answer Kenji
But ... I guess I must be clearer:
my question was more about a more exact dating of all these early decks between 1930 and let say 1949 date of the first printing of Marteaus book (though it seems as if there are earlier editions of his book too!)

To me the 1930 deck would be the one with Lys and no dice, as the copy you have and as the Dusserre reproduction shows.
Somewhere after 1930 appears the Tulip and the dice, but when is the question I have

And as the tax stamp has been used until 1940, the decks with tulip and dice could have been from 1940 and not 1930.
But well, sometimes I just wonder how important it is to date these decks

I nevertherless still have a question about the coloring.
Does your copy of the 1930 deck with Lys and no dice or your copy with tax stamp have this light blue and light green?
The difference is very clear for the green looking at the As of Batons and for the blue it is easy to see the difference on most every card of the major arcane and particulary on La Lune
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Dice and Lys


Some days ago during a trip to Paris I made a short visit to the beautiful "Musée Francais de la Carte à Jouer" in Issy-les-Moulineaux.
It was a delightfull visit for me and I advise all Tarot enthusiast to go there, you will find a lot of old precious decks presented in a very nice way.

A 1930 copy of Marteau's deck is also exposed.
I was surprised to notice that, as expected, the four of Deniers has the Lys but the Bateleur had the Dice instead of the coins

Well it must not mean too much as it is certainly not rare that cards from several decks get mixed.

But for my collector curiosity it is an interesting detail
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I wonder coredil, if you can help me to identify my two decks. They don't seem to quite fit any of your listings, but are close.

I'm thinking that DECK 05 is the closest fit for the following:

Copyright: © GRIMAUD 1980
All cards have a copyright
French titles
Background color: white
Normal cardstock and lamination
Violet box with Le Monde on the front and Le Mat on the back
Cards: 63 mm x 120 mm
Deck thickness: 27 mm

The LWB says Copyright J. -M Simon 1977.
REF. 394 403

The two of Coins shows the words "1748 B P GRIMAUD ~ 1930"

~~

My second deck is similar to DECK 02, but not quite the same:

Copyright: B · P · GRIMAUD ·
Copyright on major Arcane (except XVI La maison dieu, XVII La lune & XVIII Le soleil),
The pips have no copyright
French titles
Very thick cardstock
Background color: off white
Green box with a white Sun on the front and back
Cards: 65 mm x 123 mm
Deck thickness: 40 mm
No REF. on the box.

The LWB is a pale blue, only in French and says J. -M Simon 1969

Both decks have the same backs which is the same as DECK 02 in your scan but without the white frame!

Any ideas?

Moonbow*
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Hello Moonbow,

I would say the first deck you describe is quite similar to deck 05 and to deck 06, the main difference being that deck 06 was an advertising deck for Readers Digest (hence the other cardback and no mention on the two of deniers)
The dimensions of the cards though are different.
The only deck I have with 63 x 120 is deck 12, a late edition with german and spanish titles.
Deck 05 came also with a LWB by J.M.Simon 1977

One consideration: measuring cards can be tricky depending on what ruler one uses.
But if the cards really are 63 x 120, then I would say it is another variation of this deck

About the second one:
I also have a copy that matches quite exactly your description.
Same Box, same LWB (though I tend to say light green for the color of the LWB, but the color is quite light)
I now am not sure why I did not include this one in the list.
Probably because I got it after I decided to stop this thread.

But indeed this older version is a variation on its own too.
Also it is not a very common one, so congratulations

In the meantime I could get some other decks:
I now have an uncomplete Arnoult-Grimaud (deck 17), unfortunately all the Majors are missing.
And as I mentioned 5 post earlier, I also could find a 1930 (?) edition with Tax Stamp, the pale color and the helicoidal pattern on the back.
I also could find a copy of the Facsimile edition of the 1930 edition by Dusserre.

What I one day will try is to date all these decks and make a kind of chronological list.
Also informations/scans of the boxes can be interesting though sometimes misleading.
For example I got the Arnoult-Grimaud (Tarot Italien) in a Early box of the 1930 edition of "Ancien Tarot de Marseille"
But I still do not have enough informations.
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Thank you coredil.

I've remeasured the first deck (with a different and more detailed ruler) and it is definitely 63 x 120. It came from a friend in Switzerland so I don't know if that is information which is relevent.

Some more information about the second of my decks...

The blue is lighter than in the other deck and the red is deeper (less orange-y). The skin tone, which is also used for the Bateleur's table, some stright swords etc, is much deeper too. I love this deck!

I agree the LWB could be green, and is more likely, (mine is a little yellowed with age).

I am always happy to see an addition to this thread and a chronological list would be wonderful, and suits my Capricorn mind very well too. Many thanks for this great resource and for helping me identify mine more accurately.

Moonbow*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbow*
I am always happy to see an addition to this thread and a chronological list would be wonderful, and suits my Capricorn mind very well too. Many thanks for this great resource and for helping me identify mine more accurately.

Moonbow*
Thanks Moonbow for your nice words
And ... I am capricorn too

EDIT: Inspired by your question/answer, I finally have added 4 decks to the list on the following posts.
Now your variation is there as deck 19
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Deck 17b


DECK 17b / (scans: GrimaudTdM17b)
GRIMAUD-ARNOULT 1748

Some times ago I could find a uncomplete copy of the Grimaud-Arnoult deck:
As previously mentioned it was called "Tarot Italien" (though it is a Besancon kind of deck)
Unfortunately all the Majors are missing in this copy
Notwithstanding this is a very beautiful deck.
I post again some scans of this deck because I believe that the scans reflect the colors of the deck better than Kenji scans did (Kenji scans seem to me to be too white)

Copyright: · B · P · GRIMAUD · PARIS ·
Copyright on major on all honours, the pips have no copyright
French titles
Very thick cardstock
Background color: beige
Cards: 62 mm x 118 mm
Deck thickness (56 cards only!): 29 mm
Back design: Plain brown.
The corners are gilded!

Note: According to ATF-Member "Fulgour", he has a copy of this deck with Copyright written in Italic!
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