Newbie to Thoth needs advice

Michellehihi said:

This is profound mathematics! I like it but I need to be quiet when I study it...and not have a headache like now.

If you have time maybe could you post the link for your thread where you discuss numbers? Thank you!

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I tried a search ... I believe the thread or post title was " Systems and Maps of Numbers. "

But the search throws up posts and threads with the words 'systems, maps, numbers' in them.

If you want, I can PM you the text ( unfortunately, without all the pictures illustrations and diagrams ... I cant seem to open that file anymore ) .

Samweiss said:

I don't know if your book is more about the traditional judaic kabbalah, I'm not too familiar with that to comment, but I think it has some differences compared with kabbalah that tarot is involved with.

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I agree Sam ... and I can assure you, quite a few traditional mystical Rabbis would agree too .... some state you cant comprehend Kabbalah without being Jewish. Technically, what we are talking about here is 'Hermetic Kabbalah' ... its a bit of a chimerical beast .... I doubt the 'traditional Judaistic Kabbalah' would 'approve' of our tarot associations to it !

Samweiss said:

But yes, Gevurah is feminine as it sits in the pillar of severity.

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I get what you mean .... but it also looks like ; 'the feminine is severe ' . The other pillar, termed ' mercy ' would then be 'masculine ' . For many, this seems a reversal (think of the traditional roles in the family of mother and father ... yes, I realise I am being old school ... so are many of the concepts in Kabbalah ) .

Hence, this has been a 'kabbalistic contention' for some time in Hermetic Kabbalah. My take is that the 'crown' of those pillars define them, the left hand pillar is 'feminine' as it is topped by Binah - a distinctly feminine aspect ( Holy Spirit , Sophia, The Great Mother, The Great Sea, etc . ) The Other pillar is topped by Chokmah .... on the right, a male column .

Some say, below the abyss the qualities are reversed , so the feminine, intuitive, emotive Venusian Netzach is on the right , while the Sephiroth in the other column on that level is Hod, Mercurial, intellectual, investigative, analytical and under Binah (female) and Geburah / Mars (male ) - they also compare this to human physiology where the left hand brain hemisphere controls the right side of the body and visa versa .

To me, generally, Saturn, Jupiter, Venus can have 'yin aspects' and Chokmah, Mars, Mercury can have 'yang' aspects .....

..... at times 'feminine and masculine ' seem too loaded , yin and yang see better, for a reference see this ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang#Yin_.2869.29_Yang_Principle_Table

If one just sees the top triad (only ) as a mirror reflection and the rest of the Tree the same (or visa versa ), it eliminates a whole lot of confused 'justifications' IMO.

This is general and simplified of course ... each has some of the other ... look at the ying yang symbol , the dark has some light and the light has some dark .... actually, this may explain in other way what I mean .... the light small circle in the dark half of the yin/yang can be seen as the Chokmah crown over the 'dark' pillar and the 'darkness' of Binah can be seen as the small dark circle in the white side.

Hope that makes sense ...... 'cause I just made that up .

Samweiss said:

But this feminine quality isn't some "touchy feely" kind , but more fierce. For me, it helps to think all the warrior goddesses of old mythologies, like Sekhmet.

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Thats another way of looking at it too. Yes, the use of 'feminine' can be 'loaded' with dominant cultural or temporal concepts .... yin/yang seems better IMO.

We need to realise, each of us, man and woman has both qualities in varying proportions.

Can I focus for a moment on 'severity' and 'mercy' the titles of those pillars ? For me there is a great lesson in this, as outlined in Liber Librae ( originally a Golden Dawn document 'On the development of the soul ' ) ;

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. "

http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib30.html

Samweiss said:

And you are right, with more reading you're able to add to your understanding. This knowledge will be built on layers upon layers.

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I agree. Eventually, one finds then that it can have real and benevolent APPLICATION in one's life. That then can be a 'pearl of great price' .

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Nine-Dragon_Screen-2.JPG

This thread has been a very interesting read. I've waffled about getting the Thoth for a while now. I know only the slightest of Kabbalah knowledge and absolutely nothing about astrology and, honestly, I am not horribly interested in the topics (mad respect for those here that do have that knowledge, though). That being said, I do like the look of the Thoth purely from an artistic standpoint. The cards are very expressive even for someone like me. I can't shake the feeling though that owning and using the deck in an intuitive way is slightly blasphemous and would probably cause Crowley's angry spirit to come haunt me.

GlitterNova said:

This thread has been a very interesting read. I've waffled about getting the Thoth for a while now. I know only the slightest of Kabbalah knowledge and absolutely nothing about astrology and, honestly, I am not horribly interested in the topics (mad respect for those here that do have that knowledge, though). That being said, I do like the look of the Thoth purely from an artistic standpoint. The cards are very expressive even for someone like me. I can't shake the feeling though that owning and using the deck in an intuitive way is slightly blasphemous and would probably cause Crowley's angry spirit to come haunt me.

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I used to believe also that ones needs to follow completely Crowley's line of thought in order to use his deck but I changed my mind on that.

Michellehihi said:

I used to believe also that ones needs to follow completely Crowley's line of thought in order to use his deck but I changed my mind on that.

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By no means is that necessary. However, why use the Thoth if one is not in agreement with Crowley? Why not use a deck which follows more closely your own line of thought? Just curious.

GlitterNova said:

This thread has been a very interesting read. I've waffled about getting the Thoth for a while now. I know only the slightest of Kabbalah knowledge and absolutely nothing about astrology and, honestly, I am not horribly interested in the topics (mad respect for those here that do have that knowledge, though). That being said, I do like the look of the Thoth purely from an artistic standpoint. The cards are very expressive even for someone like me. I can't shake the feeling though that owning and using the deck in an intuitive way is slightly blasphemous and would probably cause Crowley's angry spirit to come haunt me.

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In the Lon Milo Duquette book he extols the virtues of the Thoth Tarot praising it highly. He explains the meanings, the images and use of the thoth and so much more. What l found heartening though as a beginner myself was the following.....

QUOTE

"Is it any wonder that such a rare and magical device should cast an irresistible spell upon nearly everyone with whom it comes in contact? For me, the answer is obvious. However, l think it is fair to ask if it is possible for someone to use and enjoy the Thoth Tarot, even if they have absolutely no interest in Crowley or the Qabalistic, Astrological, and magical aspects of the cards.
My answer is an unequivocal "YES!" The Thoth Tarot happens to be the preferred deck of thousands of tarot collectors, students, and amateur and professional readers all over the world. Most with whom l have spoken tell me they choose the deck because of its haunting beauty and its efficacy as a divinatory tool" UNQUOTE

Reading that took the pressure off for me and as l mentioned in an earlier post the Thoth will take you where you are at in your studies and slowly guide you forwards. l am getting there very slowly but the tree of life is still miles away. My first foray into the Thoth was and is with intuitive readings. gradually by reading the LWB, which is excellent, and my Duqette book l can now expand the meanings more. As this happens you find your interest peaks in wanting to know more. l believe you can study the Thoth as little or as much as you like. l try not to overload myself all at once with too much or else l get too

Richard said:

By no means is that necessary. However, why use the Thoth if one is not in agreement with Crowley? Why not use a deck which follows more closely your own line of thought? Just curious.

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Such an interesting question... Because I like challenges maybe?
I will reflect on that during my morning run. See you!

Ok Richard, I am back from my run and I will tell you why I am studying the Toth. I bought the beautiful Haindl deck. I researched on how to read with it, and learned that it was based on the Toth. So thought, OK, to understand the Haindl, I need to study the Toth. Same for the Mary-El. And then to study the Toth, I need to understand astrology, kaballah, and what else. So this is it, a never ending learning process.

The more I read about Crowley, the more I think he was not at peace. I like this sentence from the text Desiderata: " avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit".

Also, I wonder why he had to ask someone else to draw a deck for him...instead of dictating everything to her, why didn't he follow his own path and do it himself? This is an unanswered question for me. Maybe you could answer that he was not good in painting, ok fair enough, but then what was the purpose behind his deck? To do something aesthetically appealing? You see I have all these thoughts inside my heart.

The more I discover new decks, the more I find so many creators profoundly inspired and with a real spiritual quest. I think of the Tarot of the Sephiroth that I just started studying. This passage in the companion book is very inspiring:
"As with any tool, metaphysical or not, the by-product of the tool is totally dependent on the skill of the user. But the creative arts teach that a roughly hewn piece of art can still be as beautiful, if not more so, than one so finely crafter it has lost all connection to the original inspiration. It has then become merely an expression of the personal ego, "Look what I can do!" rather than the artistic and spiritual expression of "Look what the Universe can do!" (pages 9-10).
I am not trying to diminish the Toth, not at all. I am just meditating on the subject.

To find out what made Crowley tick, I would suggest the fascinating book by Tobias Churton - Aleister Crowley: The Biography: Spiritual Revolutionary, Romantic Explorer, Occult Master, and Spy. He actually was not quite as much of a bad boy as the image which he tried to project. To some extent this was a defense mechanism resulting from the repressive religious environment of his childhood, in which he was likened to the Beast 666 when he misbehaved. Somehow, it may have been gratifying to realize that he was not really quite as bad as the image which he was projecting.

He was not a good artist, although he did try his hand at painting. He did strongly believe that he had an important message for the world: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will." His Tarot was designed to reflect this. (Of course, this doesn't mean that one should do whatever whim comes to mind, but rather that one should establish contact with the Higher Self, aka the Holy Guardian Angel, and learn thereby what one's true will actually is.)

Probably I should not even be talking about Crowley, since I am not a fan of his philosophy, and I don't even use the Thoth deck. However, I do respect the depth of his thought and his insight into occult matters.

GlitterNova said:

This thread has been a very interesting read. I've waffled about getting the Thoth for a while now. I know only the slightest of Kabbalah knowledge and absolutely nothing about astrology and, honestly, I am not horribly interested in the topics (mad respect for those here that do have that knowledge, though). That being said, I do like the look of the Thoth purely from an artistic standpoint. The cards are very expressive even for someone like me. I can't shake the feeling though that owning and using the deck in an intuitive way is slightly blasphemous and would probably cause Crowley's angry spirit to come haunt me.

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Ha! He called that 'The Demon Crowley' and according to him, it will come after you if you slavishly try to copy him instead of applying what he taught individually to yourself