Your opinions on Crowley?

fyreflye said:

I wonder why some consider it necessary to have an "opinion" about Crowley at all. Except among the tattered remnants of his tiny cult he's of no importance at all today. .

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???

Crowley was the Grand Master of the OTO, check out their work, sites and the amount of countries they are established in, today. His legacy continues quiet strongly. many people use this system as a way of holding their whole life together, it is a modern initiatuion system for men and women, and in the west I'd say this is sorely lacking (see Men and Boys thread in Chat forum).

This leads me to another point, his multi-dimensional personalitly (I've raved on about this elsewhere so I wont repeat myself); we have the magical teacher Crowley (he would threaten you with his "Demonic Crowley' if you started to worship him or look up to him too much. There is the religious Crowley - check out the Gnostic Mass script. ''Crowley in church" (like a lot of us) behaves a lot better. Then there is the GrandMaster (OTO) Crowley, he wrote / rewrote the OTO initiation rituals, and if you go through these you will meet another Crowley, yet again. (And I might add that if anyone goes through these initiations excpecting to encounter the ', the sensational, drug / sex side, you might be disappointed. They are all about The Holy Magick of Light).

The everyday man was different again. But being human, sometimes these realms overlapped. One of the most important things in magic is keeping the planes seperate, and AC was probably better than most at this (but again, not perfect).

My bitch is twofold:
1) he wrote and distributed rather nasty things about Israel Regardie (who deserved better from him) after Regardie wrote him the "Dear Alice" letter.

2)He talks about floating down a river through a rainforest, seeing all the beautiful birds ... and being able to shoot them at will ... what fun!

But that's just a personal bitch ... its to do with my particular predjudices.
In his time "Big Game Hunters'" were considered good, brave and adventurous (???)

A note on heroin use. See Timothy Leary and John C. Lily's work on Exopsychology (Lily was the first to be able to demonstrate scientifically, dolphin / human communication - for US Navy) also Robert A. Wilson uses their system a lot. The info on circuit 1 (Bio-survival, imprinted at suckling stage through to toddler stage) and its relation to heroin abuse is very interesting.

I find that the Thoth pack "rises above" Crowley the man (thanks Lady Harris!).

While it is impossible to avoid references to Crowley's teachings, and by extension his magical personality, in the deck, the worst excesses of his life are not there.

Those "nasty" things were part of his own spiritual and personal growth, and while they interacted with his philosophy in a creative way, the philosophy is distinct from the man. And it is this philosophy which is perfectly expressed in the Thoth deck, and effaces the man Crowley almost entirely.

Your Opinions Of Crowley?

Ross G Caldwell said:

I find that the Thoth pack "rises" above Crowley the man (thanks Lady Harris!).

While it is impossible to avoid references to Crowley's teachings, and by extension his magical personality, in the deck, the worst excesses of his life are not there.

Those "nasty" things were part of his own spiritual and personal growth, and while they interacted with his philosophy in creative way, the philosophy is distinct from the man. And it is this philosophy which is perfectly expressed in the Thoth deck, and effaces the man Crowley almost entirely.

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I'm not so sure about your almost complete separation of Crowley and the Thoth. The "Philosophy" you refer to in distinction from the "man" must include the man's consciousness, his organizing mind, his sympathies and antipathies. He selected and combined symbols with which he visualized his "World View." Possibly what is universal and true in this transcends Crowley the man, like a great poem or musical piece transcends its creator, for instance the alcoholic Poe's "Raven" and the megalomaniacal Wagner's Parzival. Certainly Freida Harris permeated the Thoth Tarot with her artistic Vision and Power and Style. But does the deck "almost completely efface Crowley the man"? Maybe so, maybe not.
If it "almost completely" originates in his inspired Higher Self, with Lady Harris' artistic expression embodying, yes. Still, I think it's more a mix of higher Crowley and the struggling, striving man with his likes and dislikes. But we the readers of Thoth are free to find the Higher Beauty-Good in it or fixate on its earthy shadows, which are in us and in Crowley, more or less, anyway. Or we can try to reconcile the light and dark in the deck and in us. Thanks for your provocative comment, Ross. I'll keep my Thoth and keep looking and
discovering. Temperance (Art) is the key.

I admire the idealism and high-mindedness of some of the recent posts, but I have to ask: is there a limit to our tolerance for the "dark side" of a work's creator? If Hitler created a deck, would we say, "the worst excesses of his life are not there"? Alternatively, would we say, "we can try to reconcile the light and dark in the deck and in us"?

Or would we say (as I have said), "this is too much"?

By writing approvingly of pogroms, Crowley is basically advocating genocide.

-- Lee

Umbrae said:

The issue with Crowley is context.

Back in his time period - his behavior was dark scary and weird.

Put Crowley into todays world (NYD, SF...) and he comes off as a piker.

London of 1920-30 and London of 2006 is WAYYYY different.

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Please see the site I linked to previously:

http://arcane-archive.org/faqs/crowleyracistfaq.php

and scroll down to the section entitled "Crowley's Racism Seen in 'Historical Perspective'".

I'll quote the final paragraph from that section: "To look for samples of Crowley's style of racist writing during his lifetime, one would have to scan the speeches and texts of Ku Klux Klansmen, members of the Aryan Volkisch Movement, pro-Nazi Bundists, and the few famously racist American politicians (such as Senator Bilbo) and clerics (such as Father Coughlin) who supported them. These public figures -- Bilbo, Coughlin, and the rest -- were pariahs in intellectual political and religious circles. They were regularly condemned by both mainstream conservatives and liberals alike."

-- Lee

It would be easy to write Crowley off as a product of his time were it not for the fact he was a total nonconformist in every respect. Why would he bend to peer pressure in this one thing? I believe Crowley was racist pure and simple. There are plenty of references to this aspect of his personality.

Abrac

Crowley never claimed to be a choir boy. In his day, he was heavily-maligned. It has only been more recently that some have tried to sugarcoat his image to make him more palatable. I believe this is in serious error. Everyone should know the unvarnished truth and then decide for themselves. It is difficult for us to understand how barbarism can exist side by side with benevolence. But it does in most people. Some are simply more willing to let it all hang out than others. Many Klansmen and slave owners were kind to their families, engaged in acts of benevolence, and genuinely wanted to help improve society while at the same time involving themselves in a sytem that denigrated, and was violent toward, a entire race of people. Crowley is no different. He had a light side and a dark side and never apologized to anyone for it.

Abrac

Lee said:

I admire the idealism and high-mindedness of some of the recent posts, but I have to ask: is there a limit to our tolerance for the "dark side" of a work's creator? If Hitler created a deck, would we say, "the worst excesses of his life are not there"? Alternatively, would we say, "we can try to reconcile the light and dark in the deck and in us"?

Or would we say (as I have said), "this is too much"?

By writing approvingly of pogroms, Crowley is basically advocating genocide.

-- Lee

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I didn't see anything about Crowley at that link.

Good call Lee...

Yup - I should have clarified.

Crowley’s ‘Darkside’ by today’s standards, is pretty sophomoric.

And yeah – he was a racist, and a fascist, and practiced gender-bias, as were a few of his cronies that are still regarded highly by today’s ‘spiritual elite’ (i.e. Israel Regardie).

As I said – Crowley was a piker…

Lee said:

I'll quote the final paragraph from that section: "To look for samples of Crowley's style of racist writing during his lifetime, one would have to scan the speeches and texts of Ku Klux Klansmen, members of the Aryan Volkisch Movement, pro-Nazi Bundists, and the few famously racist American politicians (such as Senator Bilbo) and clerics (such as Father Coughlin) who supported them. These public figures -- Bilbo, Coughlin, and the rest -- were pariahs in intellectual political and religious circles. They were regularly condemned by both mainstream conservatives and liberals alike."

-- Lee

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Crowley wasn't regularly condemed for racism or any sort of extremism by conservatives and liberals alike.

Those who condemed him condemned him for "satanism" and drug use, leading to the corruption of women.

This is because it is not a significant part of his considerable outpouring of writing. In fact, I can't think of a single essay dedicated to a racist topic, or advocating genocide of any people. And, it shows that most people who read him, probably agreed with those off-hand opinions without batting an eyelid.

That he had racist opinions, is indisputable. That they were anything close to those of the people you mention, is. As far as I know - and I think I know Crowley fairly well - his "racism" was representative of most of the upper middle class of his day. That is, it was the common wisdom.

Racism was not Crowley's raison d'etre. It was barely on his mind. I don't think he thought about it much. He was, as so many on here have said, a product of his time and place.

And, this racism is NO WHERE PRESENT in the Thoth Tarot.

If Hitler had designed a tarot, I doubt very much that "The Jewish Problem" and the superiority of the Aryan race, would not be omnipresent.

That these things are not in the Thoth tarot, shows that Crowley really didn't think in those terms.