The Cary-Yale Visconti

kwaw

Are there specific symbols or patterns that indicate the World card is Platonic-idealistic rather than Christian eschatological?

It is not necessarily an either/or question. Christian Platonists took pains to draw parallels between Plato's City, Augustine's 'City of God' and the New Jerusalem, inviting their reader to identify one with the other, a standard strategy in the Christian platonists apologetic armoury. Boethe, Augustine were consistently and repeated used as authorities justifying the study and relevance of Plato to a Christian audience. Other common elements were for example what they portrayed as Plato's belief in the judgement of the soul after death; there was hardly any text in reference to Plato that fails to mention it.

Kwaw
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
There were three translations by 1447, all three connected with the humanist circle of the Visconti court. A fact in itself I think that may be seen as testament to the importance of the text within this milieu. The first being the Chrysolus-Decembrio, according to Hankin surprisingly widespread and well-known; the second by Pier Decembrio. The third by Cassarino, not sure of the exact date but he wrote it after Decembrio and he died in 1447. This last, according to Hankin, was a complete and literal translation, without omissions or additions or any of the usual Christian apologetics. According to Decembrio Cassarino's translation was instigated by his enemies among fellow humanists of the Visconti court as an intended insult to himself.

Kwaw

Thanks very much kwaw. All of this is *very* good. Of course these facts are not well-known. It's good you've shared them with us.

So... how do you think this relates to the World card (or any other card or tarot in general) in the Cary-Yale deck?
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
It is not necessarily an either/or question. Christian Platonists took pains to draw parallels between Plato's City, Augustine's 'City of God' and the New Jerusalem, inviting their reader to identify one with the other, a standard strategy in the Christian platonists apologetic armoury. Boethe, Augustine were consistently and repeated used as authorities justifying the study and relevance of Plato to a Christian audience. Other common elements were for example what they portrayed as Plato's belief in the judgement of the soul after death; there was hardly any text in reference to Plato that fails to mention it.

Kwaw

You're absolutely right with the above analysis, but the World card in the Cary-Yale doesn't look like it is focussing on a New Jerusalem or any particular idealized city. It looks to me more like a "Gloria Mundi" - short for "Sic transit gloria mundi" (thus passes the glory of the world; i.e. fame is fleeting (triumphs of Fame were often inscribed with "gloria mundi" - I can't find any good examples on the web)).

The woman isn't haloed, and the glory she is presenting is the glory of the world now, not the world to come. Thus, it is a passing glory, however high.
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
It is not necessarily an either/or question. Christian Platonists took pains to draw parallels between Plato's City, Augustine's 'City of God' and the New Jerusalem, inviting their reader to identify one with the other, a standard strategy in the Christian platonists apologetic armoury. Boethe, Augustine were consistently and repeated used as authorities justifying the study and relevance of Plato to a Christian audience. Other common elements were for example what they portrayed as Plato's belief in the judgement of the soul after death; there was hardly any text in reference to Plato that fails to mention it.

Kwaw

I should make it clear that I see no problem with Platonic ideas influencing tarot iconography or ideology. I just don't see its influence in *this* tarot, even though the Platonic texts were known (especially in the Milanese context, as you have made abundantly clear, and we are indebted to you (have you seen the price of Haskins' text!? (Brill of course) I'll have to interlibrary loan it).

Whether Platonic ideas - directly or mediated by other authors - informed the "original" tarot in any way, is another subject.

My own current view is that the trumps are a "triumph of the soul" (the players' soul), and that the original highest card was the Angel, opening the doors to eternity. But the ambiguity of the last two cards with regards to which better represented eternity or the triumph of the soul accounts for the difference between orders which have one or the other card as the highest. And Platonic-Augustinian-Biblical ideas of the Perfect City or New Jerusalem/New World, reflecting the debates over city-state ideology, may well have played a role in that choice.
 

kwaw

Ross G Caldwell said:
The woman isn't haloed, and the glory she is presenting is the glory of the world now, not the world to come.

I suggest not the glory of this world, but the fame and glory of Milan, that in this world, or at least the world of Milanese political propaganda in the first half of the 15th century, was portrayed as being closest to Plato's celestial polity, and thus superior to Venice and Florence. The deck, with its glorification of the Visconti and the Duchy of Milan, is in its way propaganda; and the 'world' card I suggest can be read, and would have been read as a reference (at least amongst the courts humanistic circle), to the then present context of Milanese usage of Plato for propaganda. In other painted decks, it is possible that it is the Augustinian/Platonic heavenly city itself that is being portrayed. In the Cary-Yale however, it is the Glory of Milan that is represented but informed by and referencing current propaganda. [Hope that makes sense!]

????
Kwaw
 

Huck

kwaw said:
I suggest not the glory of this world, but the fame and glory of Milan, that in this world, or at least the world of Milanese political propaganda in the first half of the 15th century, was portrayed as being closest to Plato's celestial polity, and thus superior to Venice and Florence. The deck, with its glorification of the Visconti and the Duchy of Milan, is in its way propaganda; and the 'world' card I suggest can be read, and would have been read as a reference (at least amongst the courts humanistic circle), to the then present context of Milanese usage of Plato for propaganda. In other painted decks, it is possible that it is the Augustinian/Platonic heavenly city itself that is being portrayed. In the Cary-Yale however, it is the Glory of Milan that is represented but informed by and referencing current propaganda. [Hope that makes sense!]

????
Kwaw

In contrary to Kaplan's representation the card is regarded by some simply as fame (which in the Minchiate is the highest trump and variously appears in Trionfi-contexts as very high element).
Autorbis has suggested long ago, that this card means Fama and that the Cary-Yale had a 5x16-structure.

http://trionfi.com/0/c/30/

I'm not sure, if all material is updated to the actual state.

The central scene on the card seems to refer to a funny scene (according autorbis, who found it), which is reported from the Sforza / Piccinino fights in end of 1439. Piccinino was nearly captured and sat in hopeless condition in a small castle, which couldn't offer much resistance for the next day. Piccinino was a small man in stature and he climbed in a sack, which was carried by a very big German across the battlefield of the past day, where some Sforza troops collected useful items. Nobody did care to ask .... They reached the lake, crossed it with a boat and in the next day Piccinino was ready with fresh collected troops to attack the city of Verona (?) and win it. The story is in Klaus Schelle: Die Sforza. Also at:

http://www.condottieridiventura.it/condottieri/p/1458 NICCOLO.htm

in Italian language (November 1439) with more details. Possibly it's the most interesting story of the recent war - its appearance in a deck for a marriage in October 1441, which had the idea to manifest an overall peace in Northern Italy, also between Sforza and Piccinino, which were the both major protagonists in the war, is logical. Especially as Sforza marries.
 

Parzival

kwaw said:
It is not necessarily an either/or question. Christian Platonists took pains to draw parallels between Plato's City, Augustine's 'City of God' and the New Jerusalem, inviting their reader to identify one with the other, a standard strategy in the Christian platonists apologetic armoury. Boethe, Augustine were consistently and repeated used as authorities justifying the study and relevance of Plato to a Christian audience. Other common elements were for example what they portrayed as Plato's belief in the judgement of the soul after death; there was hardly any text in reference to Plato that fails to mention it.

Yes, the kind of spiritual mentality of Ficino and others of kindred mind could combine Platonic and Christian world-views.
The Cary-Yale painting of World seems to bring together water and land, including boat and fisherman lower left. A bridge brings together left and right lands and castles. It all seems a harmony on earth. The "matron " above, with her trumpet in right hand and crown in left, seems to be joined to the scene below by a great golden crown. What is the interrelationship between the upper and lower worlds? How is this overall two-world pattern Platonic or Christian or both?
Thank you for your specifics about Plato's Republic being translated during the formative phase of Tarot development in Milan, Florence, and Ferrara. Plato's Ideal City, and his four virtues, were certainly in the political/cultural air of the time and area.
 

kwaw

Huck said:
In contrary to Kaplan's representation the card is regarded by some simply as fame ...

According to Kaplan too the female figure with her trumpet and crown is possibly a representation of Fame, he also suggests the landscape with river, ships various 'cities' is possible a representation of the region of Milan; I too would suggest Milan, and the figure as Fama, the two representing the fame and glory of Milan.

"From 1391 Uberto [decembrio] was secretary to Peter of Candia, who later became Archbishop of Milan and later Pope Alexander V. Peter of Candia was a habitue of the Visconti court during the first decade of the 15th century, and it was through him that Uberto came to act as one of Giangaleazzo's leading publicists in his propoganda wars with Florence....

"Whatever motives may have brought the first Latin Republic into being in 1402, it is clear that by the time Uberto composed his own dialogues De Republica libri IV around 1420 he was reading the work as justification of signorial government...

"But what counts as a healthy state for Uberto is far different from Plato's account. For Uberto, the natural commonwealth is not a city-state, but a regional state (like Milan) made up of interdependent cities and their surrounding territories; only when a state has the resources of several urbes vel nationes can it truly be independent. Whereas for Plato, the healthy state, being simple in its desires, has no need for foreign trade, for Uberto the economy of a healthy state is highly diversified, and needs merchants, roads, inns, seaports, shipyards, and a merchant marine as well as a variety of other trades. For Plato, war is the consequence of the 'fevered' states lust for wealth and of the envy and greed it excites among its neighbours; for Uberto, every healthy state must defend itself, and so needs knights, mercenaries, and war industries such as armour manufacturing (a leading industry in Milan), and horse-breeding. Finally, Uberto's healthy state is ruled by a prince, who protects religion, safeguards the laws and public morals ..." [Hankin, James: Plato in the Italian Renaissance].

It is this image I suggest, of the region of Milan as interdependent cities and their territories, its ships and its princely ruler, that we see on the Cary-Yale world card.

Kwaw
 

Parzival

Ross G Caldwell said:
You're absolutely right with the above analysis, but the World card in the Cary-Yale doesn't look like it is focussing on a New Jerusalem or any particular idealized city. It looks to me more like a "Gloria Mundi" - short for "Sic transit gloria mundi" (thus passes the glory of the world; i.e. fame is fleeting (triumphs of Fame were often inscribed with "gloria mundi" - I can't find any good examples on the web)).

The woman isn't haloed, and the glory she is presenting is the glory of the world now, not the world to come. Thus, it is a passing glory, however high.[

If you are correct here, and it is most reasonably explained, the World is the mutable, transitory world of Milan and thereabouts, a glorious Maya, a proud passing of Fame, neither the Platonic Republic nor the New Jerusalem, but history flashing and fading away. I think, or I'd like to think, however, that the ultimate image in the series has some wisdom and harmony to it, more than mere Fame and the "Passing Glory of the World." But maybe I'm too Idealistic about a simply mundane matter of Italian city-states. I wonder about that elevated lady with trumpet and crown over the lands and waters bridged together.
 

Huck

kwaw said:
According to Kaplan too the female figure with her trumpet and crown is possibly a representation of Fame, he also suggests the landscape with river, ships various 'cities' is possible a representation of the region of Milan; I too would suggest Milan, and the figure as Fama, the two representing the fame and glory of Milan.

I don't agree. When Filippo did ride via ship through one of the many channels around Milan (Filippo is reported to have done this very often), he wouldn't have used such a small boat. Filippo himself on a horse wouldn't be really imaginable around 1441 - he didn't have good health then, as far I know.

The situation at the marriage October 1441 was very specific: Piccinino was the last, who agreed in the new peace, cause he felt cheated by this solution. Finally he coildn't resist. When he was especially honoured with this card - it might have been a sort of noble gesture for the looser of the game of the moment.
As far I know, the both - Piccinino and the big German soldier - got the boat of a fisherman. The fisherman is on the picture.

But if you think, that the city means Milan ... perhaps you can identify a building?