Can the cards be "wrong?"

tarotbear said:

IMHO The two Schools of Thought are 'Tarot is Predictive' and 'Tarot is Intuitive.' Predictive would be considered 'information from without' - meaning that the cards (and their interpretations thereof) are produced from an outside source. Many people believe Tarot is a direct connection to the Divine, their spirit guides, angels sitting on their shoulder - all from a source from without and not under human control. If you believe that God/Goddess/All That Is is bringing the cards up - would your God lie to you? Are you a 'Sinner in the Hands of an Angry God' ? "God: You ran a stop sign today so for the next month all your Tarot readings will be wrong."

In the School of Intuitives Tarot is controlled by the subconscious mind, the human aura, muscle contractions in the hands, and many other theories. These people also say that Tarot cannot predict a single future event because we do not - as humans- know the future. But the Tarot can tap deep into your psyche, into memories you do not know you have, into parts of the brain we do not even understand. This is what archetypes are all about - the abilty to recognise universal symbols that may be in your brain at birth. Can the human brain be deceived? Yes - how many people only see the skull but not the girl sitting at the vanity in the famous illusion? Does that make Intuitive's cards 'wrong' ?

Going back to my statement in my other post - I do not believe the cards can be 'wrong' - as in 'they deliberately lied to you' - either the wrong question was asked or they were mis-interpreted by the Reader. I have had many readings where the 'Final Outcome' never came - but that does not mean the cards were 'wrong.'

Click to expand...

How come the cards cannot be both intuitive and predictive? Insight no matter what form as with Power can come from within and from without. Example being when I do a reading, I not only pray to the powers that be as I see them, but I also clear my mind and focus on the energy of my being. To me the Power of the cards is both internal and external.

In the words of Albus Dumbledore; "Yes ... and no."

One issue to me is just what one means by "predictive". Will "the cards" tell you what IS going to happen next week? Probably not. Rather, I believe, that we, as intuitive people who are getting information from both within and without, can get glimpses of possible future situations if all circumstances surrounding the question continue on their current path. THAT is an awful lot of variables that can be changed with, almost literally a sneeze.

I will say I have gotten such glimpses, but they are relatively rare. Most of the time when I use a "future" position in a reading, it will give advice on how the querent might best approach a problem to affect the desired outcome.

As others have said, the Tarot is neither right nor wrong. It is simply a tool. When you miss the nail and hit your thumb, it is human nature to blame the hammer ...

I do want to add that people, many through time and into today, have been able to get glimpses of the future. Some folks are better at this than others. Some folks can do this without the use of any tools to focus on, some of us use scrying (mirror, liquid, crystal ball, smoke, whatever it might be), some of us use Tarot cards. But, what we see is seldom set in stone. And that is the most powerful thing about a reading of any kind that allows us that glimpse of a possible future. It allows us the opportunity of changing direction.

Some of us are much better at seeing into the past. This is similar to seeing into the future, though is usually more verifiable. If you're doing a reading for someone and get a glimpse of their past ("oh, I see here where X and Y occurred, leaving you in this present Z position), is that not similar to getting a glimpse of a possible future? You were not present when these other things happened, yet you "see" them in the reading. To me it is essentially the same thing as when you "see" into the future. After all, seeing things that we should have no way of knowing about, is one of the things we do constantly when we do a Tarot reading.

My friend TarotBear poses the question; is this from within us, or from outside of us? Is this ability inherently a part of our psyche, or our intuition, our soul? Or, is this information coming from our Spirit Guides, our ancestor spirits, Angels, or The Creator (or other cosmic power)? As much as I hate to disagree with TB, I personally answer; it is All of the Above. It is a talent which (I feel) we are all born with, but that for much of the Human race, we are taught that it doesn't exist. It is trained out of us. For some of us, we've been lucky enough to either rediscover that talent, or, for a few, our parents never taught us that it didn't exist.

I believe that my talent is growing towards being able to see into the past much better than the future. But the glimpses of the future still happen. As I said in my previous reply though, it isn't really the Tarot that is right or wrong. I actually don't feel there is any right or wrong in this. Can I be inaccurate? Yes. Can I misinterpret what I see or hear? Yes. Is it the "fault" of the messenger, or is it mine? Neither really. It's just the way it is. I just go on and learn from the experience.

And one final point; frequently, when a reading I'm doing doesn't seem to match up with what the querent wants (even if I am my own querent) ... it is usually because there is some other important message "coming through". I've lost count of the number Tarot readings I've done that were hijacked because there was something more important to discuss.

Trogon said:

My friend TarotBear poses the question; is this from within us, or from outside of us? Is this ability inherently a part of our psyche, or our intuition, our soul? Or, is this information coming from our Spirit Guides, our ancestor spirits, Angels, or The Creator (or other cosmic power)? As much as I hate to disagree with TB, I personally answer; it is All of the Above. It is a talent which (I feel) we are all born with, but that for much of the Human race, we are taught that it doesn't exist. It is trained out of us. For some of us, we've been lucky enough to either rediscover that talent, or, for a few, our parents never taught us that it didn't exist.

Click to expand...

I agree with you 1,000%

Whenever I make important readings I always try to tune first to my guides and to the spiritual realms. I always make a quick meditation and then mentally ask for their presence and assistance. The most accurate readings I have made have always been more on the tone of "sending an advice" or letting the other person know something they may not even be aware, or even if aware, do not want to see. Recently I made a reading for my brother, who is the kindest guy on earth but is so strictly in the material. He is zero spiritual and only trusts and believes in what he can see and touch. The reading came to him pointing out he was very blessed in the financial but he needed to share those blessings with those who were not as lucky as he was ( financially and also giving his own time now he is retired, not necessarily just giving money away ). And the reading also pointed to him that everything in life is circles and he needed to start opening to new ways to see his existence apart of the material and apart of work and the financial. Oh he got maaaad !! he said my reading was threatening him LOL I guess the cards ( cause it was not me !! that was his reading word by word !! ) stepped on his toes, and just like that one I have had many where the querent has not liked one bit what the cards were saying, but one could see they were right on. It is sometimes hard to read cards or present their advice, or even personally tell our minds even if we care a lot, cause we can get reactions like the one of my brother, who is still a bit upset with me, mostly because he did not like what the cards had to say. Based on that I have decided not to read for family members anymore, or people I care for a lot, unless they insist quite a lot or it is something really urgent, cause it ended up impacting the way they relate to me and blaming me for what the cards had to say. One has to know when telling our minds ( or messages from the cards ) is just making you lonelier and misunderstood.

Even for me, it happens !! I frequently find myself whining at the outcomes of my cards specially when I ask them for advice for me and what I need to work at. And some cards tend to repeat themselves until I seem to have learnt that lesson LOL It´s like : "you are being again hard on you and not letting the past go" and then one week passes and again "you are being hard on you and not letting the past go" and again and again until one week I really worked on that and finally I get other advices

So I have found the cards to be more "supportive" than "predictive" although when seeing a spread one can get a good idea of what is coming just because of reading what is going on right now. I always worry about the "outcome" positions cause I feel it is so risky to tell someone if something is happening or not. I try to avoid using "outcomes" in my readings as much as possible, cause in the end, the "outcome" only depends on us, we have the possibility to change and create our reality.

This is such a great thread !! I am learning so much from it !!

Blessings
Firefly.

Firstly, Tarot is never wrong. It may not even be possible to be wrong, either in interpretation or in the cards. What I mean is that, the interpretation you get is exactly what you need to get right now, for whatever reason. Sure the cards go much deeper, but the depths of them may not be accessible to you right now, and that is how it should be, right now, for this particular reading.

Secondly, I think it is somewhat presumptuous to say that they can be wrong. In my view, they reflect a higher Source of wisdom, and that wisdom is reflected perfectly through the cards. They cannot capture every facet of the vast Universal spectrum of experience, but that's why we have intuition, too. The other limitation is that we are human, so by definition any label we try to place on reality is going to degrade the Truth. But we can get it pretty close, anyway, as it goes.

Thirdly is that the future can be predicted perfectly. It is very difficult to do so, primarily because so many people think it is all probabilities, but at a certain level, those probabilities reduce into certainty. YOu could say that the present and the past are probabilities, too, but because our experience of those is that they are unchangeable, we are able to reduce them into certainty. However, they are no more or less changeable than the future. We experience the Universe linearly, but it is not reflective of the true nature of reality.

Everything has already happened, and is already recorded. Your every decision, your every thought, your every word, and your every action is already recorded. This does not take away your free will, but it is already known what you will choose, because it is recorded out of time. Tarot is that Universal Wisdom from outside of time being reflected to us, and if we believe that, then the future is perfectly predictable.

Magicus Textor said:

Everything has already happened, and is already recorded. Your every decision, your every thought, your every word, and your every action is already recorded. This does not take away your free will, but it is already known what you will choose, because it is recorded out of time. Tarot is that Universal Wisdom from outside of time being reflected to us, and if we believe that, then the future is perfectly predictable.

Click to expand...

Interesting comment, and very in tune with Kabbalistic teachings, from the Kabbalah classes I took I noticed they also believed everything has already been written and has already happened, and this is why we can see into the future.... something about past / present / future happening actually at the same time in different dimensions... Interesting !!

Firefly Dancer said:

Interesting comment, and very in tune with Kabbalistic teachings, from the Kabbalah classes I took I noticed they also believed everything has already been written and has already happened, and this is why we can see into the future.... something about past / present / future happening actually at the same time in different dimensions... Interesting !!

Click to expand...

Yes, precisely. Everything, in all "time", happens right NOW. It can be no other way.

In fact, I know of people who have parallel incarnations. If all has happened, and is happening at once, then there is no difference. I tell people that their soul's journey does not occur in a linear way. You could be a better person 3000 years ago, than you were 500 years ago or even now, because you do not progress through the soul journey linearly, but according to which timeline and dimension will aid your soul the most in each lifetime.

Magicus Textor said:

Yes, precisely. Everything, in all "time", happens right NOW. It can be no other way.

In fact, I know of people who have parallel incarnations. If all has happened, and is happening at once, then there is no difference. I tell people that their soul's journey does not occur in a linear way. You could be a better person 3000 years ago, than you were 500 years ago or even now, because you do not progress through the soul journey linearly, but according to which timeline and dimension will aid your soul the most in each lifetime.

Click to expand...

You sound like my Kabbalah teacher. I don´t understand you neither LOL just kidding !!

I get your point. Many students in the class felt powerless when they were told that there is no such thing as free will cause everything has already been written ( me included )

At this point I still defend the idea we do have free will to some degree and that we can alter our paths, but this has been a debate I have had for long with my Kabbalah friends.

I guess I will only know for sure when I cross the veil

Firefly Dancer said:

You sound like my Kabbalah teacher. I don´t understand you neither LOL just kidding !!

I get your point. Many students in the class felt powerless when they were told that there is no such thing as free will cause everything has already been written ( me included )

At this point I still defend the idea we do have free will to some degree and that we can alter our paths, but this has been a debate I have had for long with my Kabbalah friends.

I guess I will only know for sure when I cross the veil

Click to expand...

I believe that we both do and do not have free will, though I don't want to go too much into depth because it would be off-topic. But essentially, on the level of real Truth, free will cannot exist. Down here in the pit, so to speak, it appears to exist, though every choice is already known. Very complicated I guess, though I've thought about it so much that it really isn't anymore.

My conclusions have come from my own reflections on reality, and not from Qabalistic teachings, though I'm happy that they coincide quite well, as I respect the system of Qabalah.

Magicus Textor said:

I believe that we both do and do not have free will, though I don't want to go too much into depth because it would be off-topic. But essentially, on the level of real Truth, free will cannot exist. Down here in the pit, so to speak, it appears to exist, though every choice is already known. Very complicated I guess, though I've thought about it so much that it really isn't anymore.

Click to expand...

Free-will is time dependent to some degree, if you believe in causality, and it is hard not to. Determinism exists, but only moment by moment, you have the freewill to change things past the next causality. ( that said, what if the universe is determined to be chaotic in nature?) This is the same reason there can be no "random" events in nature, as each event must be independent of the next, if a system in nature can not be independent then by default we are all interconnected.

When "my cards are wrong" it is because I had no buried insights to bring to the surface, the cards offered no insights because I had access to none . The cards are not wrong, my "guess" was because I looked past causality to the future and was wrong ( free will in action ) The cards have no right or wrong, they just have pictures and symbols.



It is the "GOD view" that gives determinism a bad rap. Guess what? we are not gods, and I highly doubt there are any that are more then reflections of the moral limits and limitations of the cultures that have made them to be.