Pluto conjunct mars and mars square mars.

Sharla

Horary is a standalone branch of Astrology which attempts to answer questions that are asked of the Astrologer. A chart is cast by the Astrologer for the moment that they understand the question. It is this chart that is interpreted to provide the answer to the question asked.

I cast a chart for the moment that I finished reading your repost of your initial post. That chart is attached with the question What should I do?
Thankyou for the reading Minderwiz, i appreciate the time and effort you've put into this for me.
The Ascendant and its ruler are assigned to the person asking the question - technically known as the querent - and in this case, that person is you. The chart has Aquarius rising and its ruler is Saturn. Note that Horary uses the traditional rulers of the signs because they were systematically established at the beginning of Horoscopic Astrology.

Looking at the chart, Saturn is placed in Sagittarius, and is Retrograde. For the chart, I used Whole Sign Houses, which is the original house system for Horary charts (and indeed all charts). Sagittarius is two signs back from Aquarius, so Saturn is in the eleventh house. That's not a bad placement at all, it's one of the better placements and shows that you can act. But Saturn is not strong in Sagittarius, indeed it has no essential dignity of its own. It's also Retrograde (heading in the wrong direction) and it's slow all of which makes it difficult to use the opportunity to act. Basically you don't have much power to affect the situation even though you are not prevented from acting.
Your right i don't have any power anymore over this situation, its all down to him, and i had a feeling that this was to do with Saturn being in retrograde as Saturn has been appearing in a lot of my other readings to do with him.
The next issue is to decide which planet signifies him. To do that I have to assign him to one of the houses. Given the question is on romance and relationships, I've two options. If he were your husband or partner, or even your prospective partner, I'd assign him to the seventh house, which is Leo and is ruled by the Sun. If I did that the reading would work out very favourably.

However, your statement that the trouble was romantic in nature led me to suspect that I should use the fifth house which rules romance and short term relationships. Your follow up post, explaining that he's a married man, convinced me that this was the correct house to use. In the chart the fifth house is Gemini, ruled by Mercury.

Mercury is placed in Virgo, its own sign. So he has plenty of essential dignity as Virgo is also its exaltation. Mercury is also Fast- he's got the power to act indeed he's brimming over with power but and it's a big but, Virgo is the eighth house, which with the sixth and twelfth houses is one of the worst places in the chart. It's one where action is particularly difficult (relative to the Ascendant - you).
Are you saying that "he's got the power to act, he's brimming over with power" that this is him wanting to communicate with me so bad....but can't ? Just asking, as i've been picking this up from my own readings too.
There's one other issue as well. Whereas Saturn is in one of the lower dignities of Mercury, Mercury itself is not in one of the dignities of Saturn. So as far as this question is concerned, you do have some concern and feeling for him (though I'm not sure it's strong enough and I'll return to that in a moment) but he's concerned overwhelmingly with his own situation and also with his family, particularly his siblings. At the moment you don't come into it.
Yes i understand he has issues at home, for one he doesn't really want to be there and he has the whole family on his back pressuring him to say...its a Muslim family so its not so easy to just up and leave a marriage...especially for a Non muslim white girl <shock horror>.
He has no kids though with her, so no siblings, and he says he never will have them with her he wants them with me.
Normally the next stage is to look and see if there are any aspects forming between the significators. In this case there is an aspect forming. Mercury at 6 degrees Virgo is applying to a square to Saturn at 9 degrees Sagittarius. Squares signify delays, obstacles, arguments, problems. As Saturn is Retrograde, this square is mutually applying, suggesting that things might come to a sudden clash between you.
Are you sure this is not the clash between him and his wife, as like i said me and him have no contact whatsoever now, ive told him i won't contact him now and im just leaving him to come to his own conclusion as of what he needs to do or not do .....so arguments and problems and such wouldn't be happening between us.
And once again my own personal readings have been telling me about a sudden clash that then allows him to break the ties that are binding him, and to then be able to make a new start.
You said that he's not your type of guy. That doesn't surprise me, as Sagittarius is the Detriment of Mercury, Really you shouldn't be attracted to him. That's something you recognise but you believe that there's something below his exterior appearances that attracts you. I'm unsure whether that something is enough. Indeed on the evidence of this chart, I'd say that something was not enough to overcome this situation, even from your perspective. From his, there's no motivational factor.
The way i feel though it is enough, but because i now have fallen in love with him then i do find him attractive...it was just not instant attraction, but something that grew on me...as like i said he's not the usual type id go for. I don't understand how there can be no motivational factor from his side, as when we were together i could tell just by the way he looked at me, how much he wanted me....it wasn't just about sex i know it wasn't, there was something much much deeper between us.
I think you probably realise this already. Even if you don't, you soon will. Saturn stations Direct late on the 13 th of August. After that it begins to move in the opposite (and 'normal') direction. But by then the damage will have been done because that square between significators will occur whilst Saturn is Retrograde. There after Mercury leaves Saturn behind.
Yes thankgod Saturns turning direct.....Saturn retrograde always gives me some pain to handle. I'll have to let you know regarding this, because i did actually have between the 14th - 16th of this month i would be hearing from him again.
So you have some serious thinking to do. You also have to ask yourself whether he really will leave his family for you and even if he did, whether that marriage break up would remain a barrier between you. This chart does not show a happy ending to your relationship with him.
All i know is he's not happy with her, he doesn't want her kids for him to be even more trapped, there's no intimacy between them whatsoever, all the smiles in photos are fake for the family and he just basically works works works to take his mind off everything. But with him being a Scorpio he needs that intensity with someone that he has with me.
This morning, when I read JenP's post I decided to cast another chart just to verify my reading (the chart is Sharla.pdf). The second chart again has the Ascendant Ruler and Lord 5 in a square. In this case Saturn is Lord 5 and the Ascendant ruler is Mercury. Same two significators (though reversed) yielding the same result.

Coming back to your original Tarot reading. In a real sense my Horary reading backs up the idea of a clash, potentially an explosive clash if you pursue the matter. So your interpretation of the symbolism was probably right. I note that in both charts, Mars is moving towards Saturn and as the first chart was a Day chart (the Sun had not yet set) Mars is much more troublesome than normal.
Like i said im not going to be causing this clash because im not contacting him, so how can i have any involvement in it. I txt his wife last week and apologized for the whole situation, told her its not been intentional etc....apologized for all the bad things ive txt her, told her its over between me and him now and that i'm moving on....she apologized too for the stuff she'd said to me etc....we've both deleted each others numbers and that's it. There's no contact with him or her for me to cause anything....i'm out of the picture now, so if anything else kicks off, then that's between them two. so i think the "mars is much more troublesome than normal" is between them two.
What should you do? Back away and let the relationship go. Avoid the clash and have nothing to do with any break up of his marriage. If it does break up without your involvement, then there might be some hope someway down the line. But I don't really see that coming to fruition, yet it's your only chance.
Like i've said i have now backed away....he's already told me that he wants the break up to happen naturally not because of me and him, he said if its meant to happen it will....but he knows that he cant be in this marriage much longer. Im not pushing for anything, im just letting it be.
Back away and let the relationship go.
 

Minderwiz

Just tried to do a reply to your post and I lost it at the last moment. :( I'll try again later but it might well get into tomorrow afternoon, or appear in a series of replies.
 

Minderwiz

So I'll try to reply in bits LOL

Thankyou for the reading Minderwiz, i appreciate the time and effort you've put into this for me.Your right i don't have any power anymore over this situation, its all down to him, and i had a feeling that this was to do with Saturn being in retrograde as Saturn has been appearing in a lot of my other readings to do with him.Are you saying that "he's got the power to act, he's brimming over with power" that this is him wanting to communicate with me so bad....but can't ? Just asking, as i've been picking this up from my own readings too.Yes i understand he has issues at home, for one he doesn't really want to be there and he has the whole family on his back pressuring him to say...its a Muslim family so its not so easy to just up and leave a marriage...especially for a Non muslim white girl <shock horror>.

He has the capacity or ability to act but not the opportunity. That being said I don't see any evidence that you are a key priority at the moment and therefore I can't say that he wants to communicate but can't. All I can say is that he hasn't an opportunity to pursue a relationship with you or to secure what you would see as a favourable outcome.
 

Minderwiz

Sharla said:
Are you sure this is not the clash between him and his wife, as like i said me and him have no contact whatsoever now, ive told him i won't contact him now and im just leaving him to come to his own conclusion as of what he needs to do or not do .....so arguments and problems and such wouldn't be happening between us.

Firstly the square might be arguments or disputes but it could also mean delays, obstacles, problems, etc. Secondly the square is forming between Saturn and Mercury; so it is you and he who are involved. Because the square is applying it relates to future events. What I'm talking about here lies in the future.

Of course neither of you might pursue the matter in which case the square will not manifest, or both of you might back off for the time being, resulting in a delay, or problems with his family may become a major obstacle to you both pursuing a relationship. It doesn't have to be an argument or dispute, though I feel that if you tried to push matters, that is what it would come to.


Sharla said:
The way i feel though it is enough, but because i now have fallen in love with him then i do find him attractive...it was just not instant attraction, but something that grew on me...as like i said he's not the usual type id go for. I don't understand how there can be no motivational factor from his side, as when we were together i could tell just by the way he looked at me, how much he wanted me....it wasn't just about sex i know it wasn't, there was something much much deeper between us.

I can only go by the chart. His significator, Mercury, is in none of the dignities of Saturn. Had Mercury been in Capricorn or Aquarius or Libra or especially in Gemini (Mercury's Domicile) I would have seen strong motivation on his part. But Mercury is not in any of those or even in the Bounds or Decan of Saturn. His priorities, at the moment, lie elsewhere. whatever they might have been in the past (and might be in the future).
 

Minderwiz

Sharla said:
All i know is he's not happy with her, he doesn't want her kids for him to be even more trapped, there's no intimacy between them whatsoever, all the smiles in photos are fake for the family and he just basically works works works to take his mind off everything. But with him being a Scorpio he needs that intensity with someone that he has with me.Like i said im not going to be causing this clash because im not contacting him, so how can i have any involvement in it. I txt his wife last week and apologized for the whole situation, told her its not been intentional etc....apologized for all the bad things ive txt her, told her its over between me and him now and that i'm moving on....she apologized too for the stuff she'd said to me etc....we've both deleted each others numbers and that's it. There's no contact with him or her for me to cause anything....i'm out of the picture now,

I didn't deal with his wife in my reading, because she was not part of the question. However as you raised his relationship with her, I'll make some comments.

As he is signified by Mercury, ruler of the fifth house, she is signified by Jupiter ruling the opposite sign of Sagittarius.

When I look at the list of dignities in which Mercury is placed, I don't find any one of Jupiter's either. So his wife isn't explicitly one of his priorities. Of the five dignities involved, three are Mercury's own. So his overwhelming priority is himself. The other two are those of Venus and the Sun. Taking the fifth as his Ascendant, that would mean that Venus rules his twelfth house - misery, grief and self undoing and his fifth house - children, fun, romance. The former makes some sense, from what you say his family are not at all happy with his behaviour. The second is the nearest I get to you but it'could be children (or lack of them) it could be romance as a distraction from his marriage. I can't say which because we are getting remote from the original question.

The Sun rules his fifth house. That is usually siblings - his siblings or family members of the same generation. Again that fits with your comments about the family not being best pleased with him.

There are two other things relating to Jupiter. Firstly Jupiter is in Virgo, Mercury's domicile, indicating quite graphically that she's living with him. However Virgo happens to be the Detriment of Jupiter which does seem to back up your view that there's no love lost between them.

The other thing about Jupiter is that Saturn is placed in its domicile of Sagittarius. That means that Jupiter is Saturn's ruler. Jupiter can either help or not. So you are at her mercy. If she does choose to end the marriage, then you will benefit from her actions but I would think that she's also under pressure to keep their marriage going. Also as Jupiter is in no dignity of Saturn, there's no reason why she should do you a favour.

It's interesting that you have texted her. It does seem that she has some control over what happens next.

I don't think any of that alters the general conclusion of the reading. Back off and let them resolve their own situation. There's nothing you can do but inflame matters. As you say that is what you are doing, and as you've told his wife things are over between you and him. I think that's all you can do and nothing more.
 

Sharla

I didn't deal with his wife in my reading, because she was not part of the question. However as you raised his relationship with her, I'll make some comments.

As he is signified by Mercury, ruler of the fifth house, she is signified by Jupiter ruling the opposite sign of Sagittarius.

When I look at the list of dignities in which Mercury is placed, I don't find any one of Jupiter's either. So his wife isn't explicitly one of his priorities. Of the five dignities involved, three are Mercury's own. So his overwhelming priority is himself. The other two are those of Venus and the Sun. Taking the fifth as his Ascendant, that would mean that Venus rules his twelfth house - misery, grief and self undoing and his fifth house - children, fun, romance. The former makes some sense, from what you say his family are not at all happy with his behaviour. The second is the nearest I get to you but it'could be children (or lack of them) it could be romance as a distraction from his marriage. I can't say which because we are getting remote from the original question.

The Sun rules his fifth house. That is usually siblings - his siblings or family members of the same generation. Again that fits with your comments about the family not being best pleased with him.
im gonna reply to the rest of the post, but for now in this as you keep mentioning siblings and family members....especially when i said they had no children together....could this be saying that im actually pregnant to him, because i am actually late with my period this month and im not sure if its down to stress, or i am infact....but i darent do a test......especially in regards to the circumstances......and especially as you say that "the second is the nearest you get to me but it could be children".....why does children keep popping up
There are two other things relating to Jupiter. Firstly Jupiter is in Virgo, Mercury's domicile, indicating quite graphically that she's living with him. However Virgo happens to be the Detriment of Jupiter which does seem to back up your view that there's no love lost between them.

The other thing about Jupiter is that Saturn is placed in its domicile of Sagittarius. That means that Jupiter is Saturn's ruler. Jupiter can either help or not. So you are at her mercy. If she does choose to end the marriage, then you will benefit from her actions but I would think that she's also under pressure to keep their marriage going. Also as Jupiter is in no dignity of Saturn, there's no reason why she should do you a favour.

It's interesting that you have texted her. It does seem that she has some control over what happens next.

I don't think any of that alters the general conclusion of the reading. Back off and let them resolve their own situation. There's nothing you can do but inflame matters. As you say that is what you are doing, and as you've told his wife things are over between you and him. I think that's all you can do and nothing more.
 

Minderwiz

im gonna reply to the rest of the post, but for now in this as you keep mentioning siblings and family members....especially when i said they had no children together....could this be saying that im actually pregnant to him, because i am actually late with my period this month and im not sure if its down to stress, or i am infact....but i darent do a test......especially in regards to the circumstances......and especially as you say that "the second is the nearest you get to me but it could be children".....why does children keep popping up

I mean his siblings.... His brothers/sisters/cousins, etc. Basically his own family members who are the same generation as himself.

The third can also apply to neighbours, though I would not particularly expect them to be involved unless we widened the definition to include the local Muslim community. Again I wouldn't particularly expect that.
 

Sharla

I didn't deal with his wife in my reading, because she was not part of the question. However as you raised his relationship with her, I'll make some comments.

As he is signified by Mercury, ruler of the fifth house, she is signified by Jupiter ruling the opposite sign of Sagittarius.

When I look at the list of dignities in which Mercury is placed, I don't find any one of Jupiter's either. So his wife isn't explicitly one of his priorities. Of the five dignities involved, three are Mercury's own. So his overwhelming priority is himself. The other two are those of Venus and the Sun. Taking the fifth as his Ascendant, that would mean that Venus rules his twelfth house - misery, grief and self undoing and his fifth house - children, fun, romance. The former makes some sense, from what you say his family are not at all happy with his behaviour. The second is the nearest I get to you but it'could be children (or lack of them) it could be romance as a distraction from his marriage. I can't say which because we are getting remote from the original question.
Just read your other feedback from what i mentioned to you last night, and no not pregnant <phew> that would not have been a good thing.
I didn't think he would be staying for his wife as he really doesn't want to be with her.....and deep down she knows this, that's why she's using every tactic in the book of emotional blackmail to keep him there knowing fullwell how unhappy he is.
Yes i was a distraction from his unhappy marriage, and we didn't mean to fall for eachother it just happened over time.
The Sun rules his fifth house. That is usually siblings - his siblings or family members of the same generation. Again that fits with your comments about the family not being best pleased with him.
I'm sure his family aren't best pleased with him, especially when they've carefully selected a (financially)successful wife for him and told him he will love her the more he got to know her ....hmmmm well that didn't work did it. Its ridiculous how they can throw two people together and expect love to follow....isn't a marriage supposed to be about love.
There are two other things relating to Jupiter. Firstly Jupiter is in Virgo, Mercury's domicile, indicating quite graphically that she's living with him. However Virgo happens to be the Detriment of Jupiter which does seem to back up your view that there's no love lost between them.
Yes they do live together.....and this was more emotional blackmail she used on him to get them to buy a house and live together, as he was trying to put it off as he didn't want to. "No love lost between them" i don't even think she even loves him, she just likes to control him with her Cancerian emotional moodswings. How can you live with your Man and not show him any affection whatsoever, not even a little kiss on the forehead or cuddle up to him in bed or on the sofa....he wasnt getting any of this, never mind sex...and for him being a Scorpio he does need sex and all the cuddles etc, as with him this is more important than words of "i love you". No wonder he looks elsewhere, does she think he's some sort of a robot with no heart or feelings.....then when she finds out what he's been upto she claws him back with her vindictive ways.
The other thing about Jupiter is that Saturn is placed in its domicile of Sagittarius. That means that Jupiter is Saturn's ruler. Jupiter can either help or not. So you are at her mercy. If she does choose to end the marriage, then you will benefit from her actions but I would think that she's also under pressure to keep their marriage going. Also as Jupiter is in no dignity of Saturn, there's no reason why she should do you a favour.
Oh she won't end it no way....down the line he can even go and cheat on her with someone else....all this will happen again and she'll still not leave him. It has to be him who ends this marriage. I think also she's under pressure from family once again, and i know exactly what they'll be trying to get her to do now.....get pregnant to him to seal the deal even more....because they know then he won't be going anywhere for a long time. OMG I AM FUMING WRITING THAT!!!!!!! HE DOES NOT want a baby to her.....how can they do this to him, why can't they just let him be happy with someone.
It's interesting that you have texted her. It does seem that she has some control over what happens next.

I don't think any of that alters the general conclusion of the reading. Back off and let them resolve their own situation. There's nothing you can do but inflame matters. As you say that is what you are doing, and as you've told his wife things are over between you and him. I think that's all you can do and nothing more.
Yes ive backed off, and i intend to....im not one of these stupid girls that will start calling him off private number etc to speak to him.....i know he has stuff he needs to deal with and im willing to give him however long he needs. I am secretly hoping though that when Saturn turns back around, that it makes things a little easier for him, as i don't think Saturns working at all. OMG just come to me now writing that....i had a dream about Saturn lastnight lol.
I told her that to give him some peace from the situation and to let things blow over a little for him.
And your right, that is all i can do....if somethings meant to be its meant to be, if not its not and he won't return. But i just have a feeling that he will though.

Thanks Minderwiz.

I want to get into Horary now lol.