The unwashed general public & the book of Thoth

earthair

Crowley's own 'Aha!' moment in, The Confessions of Aleister Crowley (chp.72).[

Thank you for all the replies and suggestions, this is a really interesting community.

does this suggest that an 'aha' moment needs, or is much helped by, the framework provided by a secret society to enable it to be comprehended?

it reads as though Al would not have realised the import of his own writing without the awareness provided by the O.H.O?

Aha moments have been going on since humans first existed, there are no original ideas, just gradual evolution and transmission of ideas; some orders may have thought they were guarding some great mysteries, alas that is just the kind of closeted thinking which is caused by not throwing discussion wide to everyone. Just like every teenager thinks that they are the only person who has ever experienced heartbreak or rebellion.

In fact shared knowledge and open to the public discussion, a bit like peer reviewing studies, might have helped them see the wood for the trees! :joke:

Anyway I dug this article out for you :livelong:
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeV/Unleashing_the_Beast.htm
 

Aeon418

In fact shared knowledge and open to the public discussion, a bit like peer reviewing studies, might have helped them see the wood for the trees! :joke:
It might have. But it would probably have also robbed them of the 'epiphany experience' that comes with the discovery. There is value in that experience and the journey towards understanding. Simply dumping information or data in someone's lap isn't the same thing.

Crowley openly admitted that he could reveal the secret in a simple paragraph without doing any harm. But what would be the point? Merely knowing a secret isn't the same as having the the understanding of it's deeper significance and how to use it.
Aleister Crowley said:
I may say that the secret of the O.T.O., besides what has been mentioned above, has proved to all intents and purposes the simplification and concentration of the whole of my magical knowledge. All my old methods have been unified in this new method. It does not exactly replace them, but it interprets them. It has also enabled me to construct a uniform type of engine for accomplishing anything that I will.

My association with freemasonry was therefore destined to be more fertile than almost any other study, and that in a way despite itself. A word should be pertinent with regard to the question of secrecy. It has become difficult for me to take this matter very seriously. Knowing what the secret actually is, I cannot attach much importance to artificial mysteries. It is true that some of the so-called secrets are significant, but as a rule they are so only to those who already know what the secret is. Again, though the secret itself is of such tremendous import, and though it is so simple that I could disclose it and the principal rules for turning it to the best advantage in a short paragraph, I might do so without doing much harm. For it cannot be used indiscriminately.
 

Samweiss

Aha moments have been going on since humans first existed, there are no original ideas, just gradual evolution and transmission of ideas; some orders may have thought they were guarding some great mysteries, alas that is just the kind of closeted thinking which is caused by not throwing discussion wide to everyone. Just like every teenager thinks that they are the only person who has ever experienced heartbreak or rebellion.

In fact shared knowledge and open to the public discussion, a bit like peer reviewing studies, might have helped them see the wood for the trees! :joke:

Anyway I dug this article out for you :livelong:
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeV/Unleashing_the_Beast.htm

To continue your teenager analogy, I think it's more like the sentence parents say that every kid hates: "you'll know when you're older". The magic moment is when you realize your parents were right. :)

Esoteric is a vast field of knowledge and it cannot be grasped all at once. Also, some of it may not even be learned on purely intellectual level. Try to explain what is like to be in love for someone who hasn't ever experienced it.
 

ravenest

One of the frustrating things I find as a member of the unwashed general public reading the book of Thoth is Al's constant references to secrets & knowledge that are beyond our ken.

Some examples are:

Pg 76: 'with regard to the Pelican, it's full symbolism is only available to initiates of the fifth degree of the O.T.O.'

Pg 59: 'This is a doctrine only appreciable in its fullness by members of the sovereign sanctuary of the gnosis of the ninth degree of O.T.O'

Pg 102:'it is impossible to explain these terms to any but advanced students of alchemy.'

Pg 103: 'there is a particular interpretation of this card which is only to be understood by initiates of the ninth degree of the O.T.O for it contains a practical magical formula of such importance as to make it impossible to communicate it openly.'

I was wandering what other people made of the comments like these in the book of Thoth and if people feel we can understood the same things he mentions from other ways?
I think there are other ways to gain some understanding of them, but people of those degrees and alchemists understand them 'in light of their degree', which is a way of understanding them, Then you find other ways of understanding them - other metaphors and analogies. But if you are missing one way , or dont have access to it, you will not have that understanding, but you might have a set of understandings similar.

Eg, You might understand how to drive a car and how it works, a mechanic will have a further understanding and one with a high level of mathematics , who might be an engineer, has another one, and a even a capability to design a more efficient engine. if you dont have that mathematical ability, you won't have that understanding - but it doesnt mean you won't know how the car works.
 

ravenest

We probably do already know these things. We just don't know we know them, because people who know don't know we know them without asking us. I bet a lot of people join secret societies and when they get told the supposedly secret stuff think 'well duh, that was obvious'.

Not unless you join a silly one.

Actually the OTO was a formation of several societies and numerous degrees that were condensed down to one set, one reason was to eliminate such knowledge that had accrued over time. I mean, there isnt much point to a 'secret teaching' nowadays that the earth is actually a big round ball that spins and travels around the Sun ... and dont tell anyone as they might persecute you.
 

ravenest

I just thought, "Oh, more of his sex magick stuff again" and didn't think any more about it. Tantra yoga might give you the same kind of insights. Waite did much the same thing throughout the PKT.

There is no 'sex magic' taught in the V degree.
 

ravenest

Very good question, but with no simple answer.

When dealing with all things occult one can say there are two types of "secrets." One of them is simply not relaying information. Book T, for example, used to be a secret book not available to the general public. It contains the complete Golden Dawn "key" to the Tarot. Until Crowley himself published it, that is. Many other things including specific secret rituals are today not secret at all and can be found quite easily in available literature. But very often simple intellectual information won't help you.

Another type of secret occultists deal with is the type that deals with experience and initiation and those are the ones that are far more difficult to communicate. If someone has not gone through the process and training they simply don't have the tools to deal with the ideas as an initiate would. Even if one knows the rituals they don't give the whole picture.

And even reading or knowing the ritual is not the same as experiencing it. And even experiencing it , I would recommend people experience it as an initiate, as an officer and as an initiator ... that gives one a pretty good look in to it. How can I explain to you by talking or writing what a mango tastes like ? Nah, ya gotta take a bit to really know.

Even so, some can go through them as an initiate and seem to miss the whole point ! That's life I suppose ?

But even to attain, the rite isn't everything, it has to be experienced and lived and understood in context of one's own 'life dynamic' .

For example, the thing with the pelican. One can know the general theme of self sacrifice that the symbol conveys, but actually understanding it, assimilating it and experiencing it is quite another thing.

And that is just one side of it ( in joke ;) ) .... or one aspect of it. There are documents which explain the other aspects, duties, etc.

One can take comfort in the fact that the grades Crowley refers to are so high that it is not only the "unwashed masses" who cannot completely appreciate the symbolism, but also most members of the orders themselves.

I am not sure about that, one would have to check current trends and see the numbers in each degree. But 5 is considered the 'general stopping place' . Beyond there , its a higher level of dedication ... and getting involved with the

'horrible dark side of the Order ' ! :bugeyed:

( I mean admin , bureaucracy , AGM's , getting people to behave themselves .... ;) )

..... such and such a sexual act is part of attaining such and such a grade .....

It is ? Damn! I missed that bit })


I can guess that the pelican deals with sex in some way and given time I can probably find some sources to support this,

It doesnt .

but it won't confer upon me any grade.

The ceremony would confer a degree, the V. Then you a member of the 2nd Grade; The Lovers.
So basically we are all looking over the wall at a party we weren't invited to

No, you are invited to it. But most choose not to accept, or have trouble getting there ...

Every man and every woman who is free, of full age and good report has a right to pass through the Man of Earth grade and do the first 5 initiations that symbolize (among other things) gestation, birth, life, death , annihilation .

and we do the best we can. Crowley himself saw worth in this, admitting that it was not everyone's Will to devote themselves to the Great Work, but he wanted to give whoever wanted them the tools with which to start.

On a practical note, what I actually can recommend is to read, even if you don't do anything with it, some books about magick. Merely knowing basic terms and rules will greatly aid in understanding some of those "secrets." Kraig's "Modern Magic" and "Modern Sex Magic" are good places to start. Lon Milo Duquette also has a book on the magick of Thelema although I can't recall its name just now.

Yes, that is an important point. At times, one needs to learn shorthand. Eg. a certain amount of Kabbalistic knowledge of correspondences and their fields has to be learnt and examined before some degrees as the 'knowledge lectures are so jammed pack with symbolism, that is permeated , interlocked , etc . the whole thing would be missed.

It is like, it is a lot quicker of I say, Fred has a Mercury Saturn ascendant Grand Trine and a Jupiter Mars conjunction in Leo in the 7th. Some one who doesnt understand that language - I might have to write two pages here to explain it.
 

ravenest

Aha moments have been going on since humans first existed, there are no original ideas, just gradual evolution and transmission of ideas; some orders may have thought they were guarding some great mysteries, alas that is just the kind of closeted thinking which is caused by not throwing discussion wide to everyone. Just like every teenager thinks that they are the only person who has ever experienced heartbreak or rebellion.

In fact shared knowledge and open to the public discussion, a bit like peer reviewing studies, might have helped them see the wood for the trees! :joke:

Anyway I dug this article out for you :livelong:
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeV/Unleashing_the_Beast.htm

Check out 'The Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor' for an insight into pre-modern 'sex-magic' .

And before that , you might like 'Heavenly Bridegrooms' By Ida Craddock. Ida was a saint IMO. A lot of her writings, although 'sex-magical' were also appeals to men to ... well, basically , stop raping their wives.

They locked her up in a mental institution, so she killed herself . :(

http://www.idacraddock.com/public.html
 

ravenest

It might have. But it would probably have also robbed them of the 'epiphany experience' that comes with the discovery. There is value in that experience and the journey towards understanding. Simply dumping information or data in someone's lap isn't the same thing.

Crowley openly admitted that he could reveal the secret in a simple paragraph without doing any harm. But what would be the point? Merely knowing a secret isn't the same as having the the understanding of it's deeper significance and how to use it.

Grazie !