To reverse or not to reverse, that is the question.

baconwaffles

Hello everyone, I have been playing around and also studying my Marseille decks for a while, while (pardon the redundancy) also checking out videos and readings by others. I know this is a personal question but what are the rules for reversals. With my Marseille decks, the only ones I read with, I feel reversals in the major arcana are not necessary, also with the court cards. Yet, with the pips I do read reversals because it seems to flow seamlessly. Does this make sense, is this possible? Should I not read reversals at all? I welcome any and all opinions, thoughts and experiences on this issue or questions. Thank you!
 

3ill.yazi

There is no "should."

Personally, I am all over the map with reversals. I use them with the majors and with the minors when the image is apparent as reversed. So, depending on the deck, there could be I'm guessing a quarter of the minors that don't have apparent reversals.

I take some comfort in this odd arrangement in part because in Yoav Ben Dov's book, he suggests reversed meanings for the cards, and for these ambiguous cards he simply says "similar" for the reversed meanings.

This isn't a factor for Marseille decks which have a mark on them which make it easy to spot which is right side up, like the Universal TdM or the Heron Conver.
 

Tyldwick

I agree, there are no "rules," do what feels right to you! I'm still new with reading Marseille decks, so I started without reversals, but I intend to try incorporating them later when I feel more comfortable with the cards.
 

Metafizzypop

I know this is a personal question but what are the rules for reversals. With my Marseille decks, the only ones I read with, I feel reversals in the major arcana are not necessary, also with the court cards. Yet, with the pips I do read reversals because it seems to flow seamlessly. Does this make sense, is this possible? Should I not read reversals at all? I welcome any and all opinions, thoughts and experiences on this issue or questions. Thank you!

I do it the other way around. I use reversals for the Majors and Courts, but not the pips. A reversed court card has a distinct personality, and I feel that they contribute a lot to a reading. Reversed Majors I feel are also very different from their upright versions. In the system I've been using, from author Lee Bursten, there are no reversed meanings for the cards. But I use reversals for Courts and Majors because I'm already familiar with using them with other decks. But the meanings for the pips are a little further removed from other systems, and I don't think I could read reversals with those historical decks. So if a pip comes up reversed, I read it the same as though it were upright. I hope that made sense.
 

AnemoneRosie

I can't tell when the minors are reversed as they seem to go either way. So I don't encourage reversals (ie shuffle them in). If a card turned up reversed regardless I'd read it as such. But my whole approach to reversals is different from the way that many people treat them anyway.
 

Barleywine

I do it the other way around. I use reversals for the Majors and Courts, but not the pips. A reversed court card has a distinct personality, and I feel that they contribute a lot to a reading. Reversed Majors I feel are also very different from their upright versions. In the system I've been using, from author Lee Bursten, there are no reversed meanings for the cards. But I use reversals for Courts and Majors because I'm already familiar with using them with other decks. But the meanings for the pips are a little further removed from other systems, and I don't think I could read reversals with those historical decks. So if a pip comes up reversed, I read it the same as though it were upright. I hope that made sense.

I haven't read much with my Marseille decks yet, but this is how I would see it, especially since in some decks the reversal of the pip cards is subtle (and in some cases apparently non-existent), relying on trying to discern slight differences in the vegetative decoration. It can be a strain on the eyes and the sanity, so for those decks I don't bother reading reversed pips. (But to be honest, I still don't have a solid interpretive grasp of upright meanings in TdM either, since their is no long-standing "tradition" for them.
 

baconwaffles

Thank you everyone, the input has been very insightful. I have somewhat resolved the problem sufficiently enough for my liking. I just read pips as they are since the reversed differences are subtle, like many have said. The courts and majors I read as is, without the reversals. It just seems right to me.
 

Richard

Thank you everyone, the input has been very insightful. I have somewhat resolved the problem sufficiently enough for my liking. I just read pips as they are since the reversed differences are subtle, like many have said. The courts and majors I read as is, without the reversals. It just seems right to me.

Very sensible decision. Reversals is a contrivance popularized by A. E. Waite. It is an alternative to Elemental Dignities, which also is an optional and unnecessary encumbrance except perhaps in certain specific applications.
 

Barleywine

Very sensible decision. Reversals is a contrivance popularized by A. E. Waite. It is an alternative to Elemental Dignities, which also is an optional and unnecessary encumbrance except perhaps in certain specific applications.

I mildly disagree and see them as two different approaches, although both are certainly secondary techniques. As I understand them, Elemental Dignities strengthen or weaken the expression of the focus card, while reversal imparts "spin" that might affect the manner of "delivery" but doesn't necessarily alter the potency. I don't often see reversed cards as weakened (or for that matter, strengthened); they simply take me different places with their interpretation. They seem less mechanistic.
 

Richard

I mildly disagree and see them as two different approaches, although both are certainly secondary techniques........

I mildly disagree with your disagreement. ED, in particular, may be difficult to adapt to certain popular spreads, such as CC, although it may be useful with OOTK. As for reversals, if upside down cards are legitimate, it is a cruel joke on anyone with artistic sensibility or even a sense of propriety. It must have been invented by someone in the antipodes, where everything is naturally inverted. :joke: