Help me learn about these old decks?!(Thoth and Waite)

IsisAraiya

So today whilst volunteering at a thrift store and sorting out Halloween stuff I came upon two very old decks that I recognized immediately. I got so giddy I could barely contain myself. Asked to have them priced so I could buy them. Very small religious town, so they took one look and told me I could have them for 1$ each. I know they are both old. At least 70s? I know the Thoth deck is either White Box A or B after doing some scouring but I'm still confused. I have read a lot of conflicting information. Which came first Llewellyn or Weiser ? I'm pretty sure mine (the Weiser ) came second but then I found a page that said it came first? So would mine be a White Box B?

The Waite deck is different than any I've seen. Has an ankh on a pink and white background. I google the company it was published under and it says 1959 but that can't be right these definitely aren't that old. Maybe I'm not looking good enough? Could anyone help me learn more about these or link my somewhere with more certain information?
 

IsisAraiya

Alright so I did in fact read both of those threads. But I still see just tons of different stuff. Tarot Garden first says "The first full-color edition of the Thoth was (according to Kaplan) issued in 1969 by Samuel Weiser." But that is contrary to what the forum says stating Llewellyn did it first in Hong Kong. And while tarot garden says Samuel, it lists Llewellyn as the maker of Box A? So confusing. My best conclusion is that both were done in 69 but Llewellyn did it first making Box A, then Sam slipped in and made Box B and tarot garden just doesn't have their information very well presented? Yes?

After further looking around and inspection of the boxes and comparing I guess the Waite deck is in fact from the early sixties. Possibly even the 59 I guess, though it seems impossible I can find no differences indicating it is a later printing.
 

gregory

Not sure why you doubt the age of the Waite ! Mine looks mint, and is probably a 1959, but bought in 1970 or so !

I think you can tell which is the early Llewellyn by the misprints. But Kaplan isn't ALWAYS right, actually. If you can find posts by Lillie about this - she was almost always spot on - sadly she's no longer on forum :(

PS This might help. The owners of the site are very reliable. Hong Kong was indeed first.

Also see Frank Jensen - a tower in the tarot world.
 

Abrac

Here's an extract from an article by R. Leo Gillis, 2009, on the Thoth printing history. I took the liberty of adding brackets in a couple of place to help make the meaning clearer.

Llewellen published the first version (Hong Kong) and Weiser only served as a distributor for that one; later Weiser would also print and distribute the same deck as the Llewellyn "USA" one but with no publisher mentioned; it only says "Distributed by Samuel Weiser" and "Printed in the USA." Llewellyn had two versions, one "Printed in Hong Kong" and one "Printed in USA"; Weiser only had "Printed in USA."

"The first time the entire deck was printed in color was at the end of the 1960s. Facilitated by Grady McMurtry, Caliph of the OTO, (who had bought the rights to the deck), with the assistance of Llee Heflin, this first edition was printed by Llewellyn, and also distributed by Weiser.

There were three versions of this printing [edition], all packaged in an attractive slip-case with an inner gold box and an outer white box. The first is known as "White Box A", and was printed by Dai Nippon in Hong Kong. The other two versions were essentially identical and are known as "White Box B". These were printed in New York USA by Morgan Press. The only difference in these two later versions is that one is published by Llewellyn and the other is [printed and] distributed by Weiser. The cards are identical.

But the cards from Hong Kong were different from the later printing in the USA. Not only were they on un-laminated stock, there were two major errors; the 8 of Cups had no numeral '8' at the top of the card, and the Ace of Disks was printed 'upside-down'.

The USA printing eventually corrected the two errors found on the 8 of Cups and the Ace of Disks, but early copies still contained the errors, both in the Weiser and Llewellyn versions.

The USA printing was done on better, laminated card-stock, but also had some cards that were washed out, and poorly printed, particularly the 6 of Disks.

In both printings, the borders on the face of the cards was plain, and colored a variable powder-blue, while the back of the cards had no border. The face of the cards also included the name of the card, but no alchemical glyphs or Hebrew letters on the Majors.

Aside from the deck itself, this edition also included an advertisement card for the copyright holder, Ordo Templi Orientis. Inclusion of this card became standard on every Thoth deck released from that point forward, (with two exceptions).

According to Carl Llewellyn Weschke, the first publisher of the deck, Grady McMurtry paid Aleister Crowley $250 for the rights to the deck, and photographed the art with his35mm camera. Llewellyn purchased these negatives and made plans to publish the deck. Since Weiser had published the companion Book of Thoth by Crowley, which they asserted was in the public domain, they were also planning to publish the cards, (which were also allegedly in the public domain). Instead, Weiser shared the printing with Llewellyn until the next version of the cards [Greenie] came out. When Llewellyn stopped being involved, they had sold over 50,000 copies of this first color printing of the deck."​