Book of Thoth (uh...the book, not the cards)

Richard1

Well, I just finished reading it the other night, and found it be (for the most part) lucid, entertaining, and informative. The only things that I found rather disturbing about it were A) the fact that many of the cards (like the Four and Ten of Cups, and the Ten of Disks) that had seemed positive to me were described in negative terms, and B) the readings of certain cards that were available only to high-ranking adepts of the O.T.O. (Although I have to say that it was much better than Waite's "Pictorial Key" in that sense, since Waite just hints at most of the esoteric significance without revealing even that the Fool comes first in the deck).
So, my questions: How locked should we be into Crowley's reading of the cards? I disagreed with a lot of the Banzhof/Akron book (notaby the sexism in the description of the Princess of Swords), but they're just commentators...Crowley's the designer...if he says the Ten of Cups is sinister, should we take that as written in stone? I'm inclined to say no, since each of us must create our own relationship with the cards, and I've already dispensed with some of the more Thelemic meanings of the cards, but I'm wondering what everyone else thinks.
Second, have the "secret" meanings ever been made public, or does one still need to work one's way up the heirarchy of the O.T.O. (which, weirdly, is only about an hour or two away from my house) in order to find them out?
If they haven't, I suppose it doesn't matter...The Book of the Law leaves me cold, and I'm guessing that the secret meanings tie into it more deeply.
 

Rusty Neon

A useful supplement to Waite's PKT and Crowley's _Book of Thoth_ and to understanding possible intended divinatory meanings of the cards of the RWS and the Thoth decks are the Golden Dawn's manuscript, Book "T" and other GD manuscripts. These manuscripts are also a good way of trying to isolate out the Thelemic elements of Crowley's work.
 

firemaiden

Hey Richard, your question intrigues me. I didn't know there were secret meanings. How bout you join O.T.O. and then tell us? LOL
I adore the Book of Thoth, it is so... funny, and poetic.

I don't think anything is ever written in stone...these days we mostly use paper. (or electricity now that you mention it) and of course everything about how you read the cards is up to you and your mind at the moment that you read them, they are just a tool.

At the same time, of course, each card is a little drawing to represent reams of thought, and so it is fascinating to learn what those reams of thought are. Whether those reams of thought will have any bearing on a reading, is another story. I tend to think it is rather beside the point.

I think, reading is reading, has more to do with you than the cards, you may see what ever comes up in your mind when you lay the card down.

Outside of reading for divination, when we analyse and delve into the symbolism and philosophy, and possible magical properties of each card, it is pretty exciting to know what the guy actually intended and thought. No?
 

Richard1

Hi, Firemaiden!
Me? Join the O.T.O.? No thank you...I guess those mysteries will have to stay mysteries (I'm imagining that the greatest secret is that the cards are actually Mad style Fold-Ins that show the phone numbers of Crowley's favorite mistresses).
Hmmm...MY Book of Thoth is written in stone, what edition to you have?
Seriously, though, you're right. I actually think the best example of this is Crowley's extended metaphor of the debutante meeting 78 people at her coming out. And, extending the metaphor a bit, she's going to have different reactions to them than their parents do...Although, as you say, it's always nice to know what their parents think.
And Rusty Nail, I've been wanting to read Book T for a while now, but I can only find portions on-line, and Regardie's complete Golden Dawn book is a bit beyond my means at the moment...have you found the complete text anywhere?
 

Minos

Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

<<A) the fact that many of the cards (like the Four and Ten of Cups, and the Ten of Disks) that had seemed positive to me were described in negative terms>>

Heh. I thought the ten of Disks seemed pretty positive. Kether in Malkuth and all.

As for the 4 & 10 of Cups, I think the point is that they are something positive, but in danger of losing their original purity, so they contain the seed of something bad.

<<B) the readings of certain cards that were available only to high-ranking adepts of the O.T.O.>>

Usually that comes up only when he's making a (sometimes rather crude) sexual innuendo.

<<I disagreed with a lot of the Banzhof/Akron book (notaby the sexism in the description of the Princess of Swords), but they're just commentators...>>

I've avoided Banzaf and Akron, since I have yet to hear anything about their writing that didn't rub me the wrong way. Funny, I thought they criticized Uncle Al for sexism... Is this a people-in-glass-houses case?

<<Crowley's the designer...if he says the Ten of Cups is sinister, should we take that as written in stone?>>

The thing I like about the BoT is that it gives, on the whole, very polyvalent meanings for the cards. Crowley of course weights the possible variations in his own way, but you may do so differently - and I think that's 'part of the game.'

<<Second, have the "secret" meanings ever been made public>>

They're known to most eigth graders. Well, maybe not, but the basic principles are.

The OTO IX* secret refers to (moderate this out if you need to), erm, consuming the "gravy" after the process of "cooking". The XI* secret is also about consuming the "gravy", except both cooks are male. The VIII* secret is about "cooking" alone.

<<The Book of the Law leaves me cold, and I'm guessing that the secret meanings tie into it more deeply.>>

The Book of the Law does tie into Thoth, but it shouldn't be in hidden ways. "The Law is for all..."

Love is the Law, Love under Will.
 

Richard1

Thank you for clearing that up, Minos. I guess Crowley's like Shakespeare in that way...anytime you think you've found a dirty joke, you have. And there's probably about five more you've missed along the way.
The 99th anniversary of the receiving of the Book of the Law is tomorrow, no? So far, Crowley's comment about entering a dark age before the new Aeon can fully blossom seems dead on...
About the Ten of Disks: As I recall, Crowley said that the Disk relating to Malkuth was larger than the others to indicate the futility of material wealth...hardly the "winning the lottery" card that it might at first appear to be.
About Banzhaf/Akron: Yes, they do get on Crowley's case about sexism, primarily in the Empress, which they say is a male/sexist view of woman. Frankly, I can't see it in the card itself, and I think they're pushing their own issues on to the picture (They also say she's cut off from her sexuality because she's turning away from the viewer. To me, it looks like she's looking at the Emperor; not a denial at all). And the discussion of the Star talks about how seductive and alluring the picture is, solely because it shows a naked woman. They also describe the Princess of Swords in largely negative terms, as an obnoxious young woman prone to contradicting people just for the sake of argument. Personally, I think she's a lot smarter and more interesting than that. If you can speak to her on her level, you'll get insight, but she doesn't suffer fools gladly.
 

Minos

<<Thank you for clearing that up, Minos. I guess Crowley's like Shakespeare in that way...anytime you think you've found a dirty joke, you have. And there's probably about five more you've missed along the way.>>

Yeah, although unlike Shakespeare's, Crowley's usually involve his anal-fixation or the consumption of bodily effluvia.

Crowley's perversion is both a help and a hindrance. On the one hand, mystical literature is crammed with over-used metaphors, and Crowley's, being so transgressive, are seldom hackneyed. On the other hand, sometimes he's just writing filth.

<<About the Ten of Disks: As I recall, Crowley said that the Disk relating to Malkuth was larger than the others to indicate the futility of material wealth...>>

Yeah, although it's the reverse of, say, the four of Cups. Instead of purity on the brink of descending into impurity, you have impure material on the brink of ascending back up to the heavens.

It's as if you won the lottery already: now you can either spend your life in deadening enjoyment of filthy lucre, or build a spiritual kingdom out of material wealth.

I think Crowley actually uses the example of the robber barons who built philanthropies and public libraries with their ill-gotten fortunes. (Never let anyone tell you he left aside his childhood Calvinism completely).

<<About Banzhaf/Akron: Yes, they do get on Crowley's case about sexism, primarily in the Empress, which they say is a male/sexist view of woman. Frankly, I can't see it in the card itself, and I think they're pushing their own issues on to the picture (They also say she's cut off from her sexuality because she's turning away from the viewer. To me, it looks like she's looking at the Emperor; not a denial at all).>>

I think part of the Thoth Empress is derived from Eliphaz Levi's picture of Baphomet. Compare:

http://www.illuminati-news.com/baphomet.jpg

and

http://www.villarevak.org/g_his/th_es.jpg

The crown mirrors the horns; the hands are pointing at the same half-moons. She has flowers in her lap instead of a caduceus.

So if there is sexism there, it lies in the fact that she might not even be a woman!
 

Minos

Richard said:

And Rusty Nail, I've been wanting to read Book T for a while now, but I can only find portions on-line, and Regardie's complete Golden Dawn book is a bit beyond my means at the moment...have you found the complete text anywhere?
Click to expand...

http://www.private.org.il/GD/Book-T.html
 

Richard1

WOW! Thank you, Minos. You seriously rock!
 
Made 'that' purchase! The Emperor