Illustration of 10 Swords in Thoth

and then after 7 pages of research and info and homework and sharing , I dared to a have a little chat ....

and that was the end of that thread !

Anyway, its all together in one post now , sort of.

Barleywine said:

I waded through part of that thread; it did go pretty deep. I think whether they're actually wings or not is kind of irrelevant (although I do agree the minor cards hold the root of the idea and the court cards extrapolate from that). They (the putative "wings") mostly seem to be built on the number 4, and do remind me strongly of the "whirling deltas" image that emerged from my reconstitution of the Harris "doodles" Especially since it seems to hold strong echoes of Agrippa's Seal of Saturn in the Square of Saturn, I will probably stick with the Saturn association.

Thanks for starting this, it was fun and let me unleash some of my old graphic design training.

ETA: Oops, posted before I saw your last reply. Looks like I'm going to have to retrench . .

Click to expand...

When you are finished , maybe drop a line to Snuffin

Moderator Note:

Hi folks,

In the interest of keeping threads neat, let's not get into the habit of cross-quoting in the manner that has been done. The ancient thread in question has been cleared of off-topic posts and has been bumped, so post away there, if you wish.

No posts in this current thread have been removed, but please let's keep things neat. The custom for cross quoting is through links and proper quotes in each citation. This is a custom, not a rule, but does make things easier on everyone (including me).

Thanks,

Zephyros
Thoth Forum Moderator

ravenest said:

I hadnt pulled out my old decan writings on the cards on this one, I gorgot about that ( Ha! ), so thanks for the reminder.

Looking at my theory that significant stars in a constellation lent their energy to a decan in a sign (or, in another way, decans got their reputation from stars within them or on a similar longitude ) ... and this passed into the cards.

And taking Snuffin's point of a strong Saturnian influence ;

Castor and Pollux both seem significant here;

Castor; " According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Mercury; to Wilson, Simmonite and Pearce, of Mars, Venus and Saturn; and, to Alvidas, of the Moon, Mars and Uranus. It gives distinction, a keen intellect, success in law and many travels, fondness for horses, sudden fame and honor but often followed by loss of fortune and disgrace, sickness, trouble and great affliction. Its natives are said to be mischievous and prone to violence ." 1.

" Castor is also noted in natal astrology for proneness to mental breakdowns and neurotic distress. " 2.

With Saturn: " Timid, distrustful, eccentric, original mind but difficulty in expression, better writer than speaker, considerable intellectual powers, fond of detail, prejudiced against popular opinions, unfavorable for marriage, peculiar domestic conditions, early sickness of children, gain at end of life through hard work. 3.

Pollox; " It gives a subtle, crafty, spirited, brave, audacious, cruel and rash nature, a love of boxing, dignified malevolence, and is connected with poisons." 4.

" According to its nature, this star is brutal and tyrannical, violent and cruel if in conjunction with the Sun, Moon, Ascendant, MC or with malefics. " 5.

" With Saturn: Bad temper, bitter, sarcastic, loss of arm or leg, loss of parents or trouble through step-parents, much help from a friend, lack of education, sudden death while following occupation through horses or large animals." 6.




1. Fixed Stars and Constellations in Astrology, Vivian E. Robson. p.154

2. The Living Stars, Dr. Eric Morse, p.43

3. Robson, p.155.

4. Robson, p.185-186.

5. Fixed Stars and Their Interpretation, Elsbeth Ebertin, 1928, p.41.

6. Robson, p.187

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Thanks ravenest! I'm not familiar with either Snuffin's writings or meanings of fixed stars, so that was useful to me.

But back to 10 of Swords. To my eyes the background elements don't look uniform enough to be kameas or planetary sigils, but this made me look backgroungs of other sword cards and what I think could be a cool detail is that 9 of Swords has these weird looking Rosy Crosses. Does anyone else see them? They are clumped on bottom part of the picture.

http://reclaimingbeauty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/thoth_swords_nine.jpg

Samweiss said:

Thanks ravenest! I'm not familiar with either Snuffin's writings or meanings of fixed stars, so that was useful to me.

But back to 10 of Swords. To my eyes the background elements don't look uniform enough to be kameas or planetary sigils, but this made me look backgroungs of other sword cards and what I think could be a cool detail is that 9 of Swords has these weird looking Rosy Crosses. Does anyone else see them? They are clumped on bottom part of the picture.

http://reclaimingbeauty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/thoth_swords_nine.jpg

Click to expand...

I am not certain they are intended to be rosy crosses. Maybe so, maybe not.

Richard said:

I am not certain they are intended to be rosy crosses. Maybe so, maybe not.

Click to expand...

I can't quite get there either. Mostly what I see on the 9 of Swords are the same 4-pointed figures used for the "wings" of the Princess of Swords, and the background figures for a couple of the other Swords starting with the Two. But the ones at the bottom are different. In contrast, the more complex figures on the 10 of Swords seem to make their first appearance in the 4 of Swords.

I just had to do it! I sorted all of the cards by common background figures to see if anything jumped out at me:

In the Ace of Swords, geometric background patterns are just starting to emerge, but I can almost see in them the root of the "cross" figures at the bottom of the 9 of Swords. It's a stretch, though.

The 2 of Swords, 9 of Swords (upper area) and the Princess of Swords ("wings") have the "blunt" 4-pointed star figures.

The 4 of Swords, 10 of Swords and Queen of Swords ("wings") have what I call the "squashed" 8-pointed stars.

The 6 of Swords, 7 of Swords and Knight of Swords ("wings") have "sharp" 4-pointed stars.

The figures in the 3 of Swords have been dismembered, but look like they could have been 4-pointed of some sort.

The figures in the 5 of Swords have also been mutilated; the ones at the middle have four blunted arms, while the rest look like they were more complex when whole.

The 8 of Swords has more of a geometric pattern instead of discrete figures.

The Prince of Swords has circles for "wings" with three and a few four-pointed figures in them. The backround looks like an array of crystals.

All that said, I still see a strong repetition of the number 4 (and its "doubling") everywhere. Most of the numerological associations for this number have to do with matter and structure, but "crystallization" seems to be a recuring motif in the Thoth Swords. Crystals make me think of thought-forms becoming "fixed" in matter.

Do you suppose Frieda Harris is having a good laugh at our expense?

ETA: Since I'm more of a visual type, I arranged these sets into a kind of asymmetrical "mandala:" the three ternaries with the outliers loosely aligned to the outside of their associated "pods" (2-3-4, 4-5-6, 5-6-7, 8-9-10, Q-Pr-Prs-Kn). Ace and 10 I paired due to their obvious connection.

Richard said:

I am not certain they are intended to be rosy crosses. Maybe so, maybe not.

Click to expand...

They are expressions of 'crystallized air' based on the 'angelic names' that rule the cards.

Now we just need some maths wizard to work out how it was done

Barleywine said:

I can't quite get there either. Mostly what I see on the 9 of Swords are the same 4-pointed figures used for the "wings" of the Princess of Swords, and the background figures for a couple of the other Swords starting with the Two. But the ones at the bottom are different. In contrast, the more complex figures on the 10 of Swords seem to make their first appearance in the 4 of Swords.

I just had to do it! I sorted all of the cards by common background figures to see if anything jumped out at me:

In the Ace of Swords, geometric background patterns are just starting to emerge, but I can almost see in them the root of the "cross" figures at the bottom of the 9 of Swords. It's a stretch, though.

The 2 of Swords, 9 of Swords (upper area) and the Princess of Swords ("wings") have the "blunt" 4-pointed star figures.

The 4 of Swords, 10 of Swords and Queen of Swords ("wings") have what I call the "squashed" 8-pointed stars.

The 6 of Swords, 7 of Swords and Knight of Swords ("wings") have "sharp" 4-pointed stars.

The figures in the 3 of Swords have been dismembered, but look like they could have been 4-pointed of some sort.

Click to expand...

Aha! Remember those pics I posted to you of the kamea mandalas painted on the big banners ? I remember now that in 'constructing' some of the art work, some lines, although not removed or dismembered where 'de-emphasized' or not colored, or colored differently .... that is how the swastika 'emerged' in the middle of the Sun banner. Also I did it with the Ben Franklin square of 8 for Mercury , by selecting the arrangement of the corresponding colors, a large Gemini sign appears.

I am sure Frieda used some type of 'artistic licence'.

ravenest said:

Aha! Remember those pics I posted to you of the kamea mandalas painted on the big banners ? I remember now that in 'constructing' some of the art work, some lines, although not removed or dismembered where 'de-emphasized' or not colored, or colored differently .... that is how the swastika 'emerged' in the middle of the Sun banner. Also I did it with the Ben Franklin square of 8 for Mercury , by selecting the arrangement of the corresponding colors, a large Gemini sign appears.

I am sure Frieda used some type of 'artistic licence'.

Click to expand...

Aha here as well! This is how the whirling green, four-pointed star appeared in the center of the work I posted earlier. I was employing line and color for one purpose and something entirely unexpected emerged that was still germane to my objective, snd in fact furthered it.

A great example of 'following' that magical pattern / rules and then using artistic license !

Using the same principles makes the difference between a 'whim' and ones bonafide 'take' or adaptation. The same with the whole temple set up. When it happens on that level, its 'firing' .... people can tell 'something is right' about it. Those with more advanced understanding observe with little delights and insight springing forth .