Why is Tarot "true" but other cards aren't? Or: "The Fantod Pack"

Into this conversation I submit: The Arcane Bullshit Oracle: https://www.thegamecrafter.com/games/arcane-bullshit

I have read with this for friends at Pantheacon (a local pagan conference) and would have people pull a card. They would turn over "Coffin Full of Tacos, Full of Snakes" look at me and say "So what does that mean?" Which I think may not be the point of the deck. If I were to guess, I would say that the deck may have been created to have on over on us wacky readers who try to divine profound meaning out of anything. That said you really can do just that with this deck. My very favorite card in it is titled: "Make Up Your Goddamned Mind."

With the AB Oracle, I think there is a sliiiim chance of having a useful reading with it (and I do try) but The Fantod Pack (which I treasure) is a bit of fake ephemera that I don't see as being meant to give a reading. It seems to be based a bit on a Gorey-fied version of Mlle. Lenormand, that is the aged Doomsayer of polite society. I reserve the Fantod pack for Halloween-time gatherings of other readers so we can predict dismal ends for one another.

Then there is a deck like the Mage: The Ascension, whose companion book says that it is not meant to be used for readings but, having been created with the formal Tarot structure, works very well at them.

Shade said:

The Fantod Pack (which I treasure) is a bit of fake ephemera that I don't see as being meant to give a reading....I reserve the Fantod pack for Halloween-time gatherings of other readers so we can predict dismal ends for one another.

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Well, of course it's not meant to give a serious reading, in the sense that dear old Mr. Gorey never intended that, any more than he intended any of his off-kilter and vaguely macabre little books to be taken too seriously. (He commented on at least one occasion in an interview something about how how bemused he always was when someone told him they understood what he had "intended" to be the real meaning of one of his bizarre stories.)

I'm certain he never anticipated his deck to be actually used in anything resembling a serious way, even by friends to "predict dismal ends for one another" as a blackly humorous pastime.

Of course, any suggestions of "meaning" in these delightful cards should be taken with a grain of salt...and yet, why not pull out a card such as The Sea and upon reading in the booklet that one of its meanings is loss of ears take it as advice to listen carefully to what others are saying?

It's an amusing exercise to ponder the "mysterious" little booklet that purports to explain these cards, and find actual, useful guidance in meanings such as extradition or itching, and a good way to develop one's ability to "think outside the box."

But since the meanings of the card do not relate in any way to the symbol chosen, and there isn't really a lot of cohesion to the collection of meanings this is basically an inferior form of Bibliomancy. I say inferior because if you opened a book and pointed at the phrase "Loss of ears" I would be able to riff as you have and think about listening but the Fantod requires that you also somehow decide that the rest of the meanings given are not meant for you.

Yes you can use them for divination in the same sense that I could attempt to read a deck of tarot cards at the bottom of a swimming pool in the middle of the night but it's certainly not as likely to be of great use.

Shade said:

But since the meanings of the card do not relate in any way to the symbol chosen, and there isn't really a lot of cohesion to the collection of meanings this is basically an inferior form of Bibliomancy. I say inferior because if you opened a book and pointed at the phrase "Loss of ears" I would be able to riff as you have and think about listening but the Fantod requires that you also somehow decide that the rest of the meanings given are not meant for you.

Yes you can use them for divination in the same sense that I could attempt to read a deck of tarot cards at the bottom of a swimming pool in the middle of the night but it's certainly not as likely to be of great use.

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As I said previously, I'm not in any way arguing for the "seriousness" of Mr. Gorey's odd little amusement. But suppose you looked at your deck of Tarot cards in the pool in the middle of the night, and thoughts about "ripples of meaning" or "clarity of vision" inspired you with ideas that form a sound basis for action regarding a situation in your life that has been puzzling you. Would you question the value of your new ideas simply because the Swimming Pool Oracle is not a "true" or "legitimate" divination system?

I'm not given to looking for signs and symbols and profound meaning in every mundane little aspect of life, and "oracles" rarely interest me, even those that are meant to be taken seriously. (I might even say especially those that are meant to be taken seriously!) But if I encounter something that does inspire useful thoughts that might not otherwise have sprung to mind, I'm merely suggesting that I would not dismiss them simply because their source might be questionable.

Regarding the lack of cohesion in the card "meanings" (clearly meant to make the whole thing more amusing in its weirdly disjointed way, amusement being the only real intention of the thing), the "riff" is really the whole point, isn't it? But why would you think you are required to choose only one meaning and decide that the rest are not meant for you? Suppose more than one of those meanings resonates for you? Are you not allowed more than one new idea at a time?

Again, it's not my intention to treat the Fantod deck with a level of gravitas that was certainly never intended by its creator. My suggestions were merely a tongue-in-cheek look at how an open-minded dabbling into this droll little diversion can actually yield a worthwhile tidbit or two of truth.

I have similar revelations while watching old episodes of The Addams Family...

Krystophe said:

I have similar revelations while watching old episodes of The Addams Family...

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Ah, oui! Merci La Chose

I love the Halloween idea.

I only bring out the Fantod on Halloween . Not because I think it's flawed or sub-tarot , but because it spends the year gathering energies just for that day . (Because I said so.)

But don't underestimate the Fantod . Before I had the deck I found the online oracle version of it . I had just received The Black Doll card when my daughter walked in the front door and presented me with a black doll . Which she had never done before and has never done since . An evil little vintage cloth Jamaican character that I used to fantasize about sticking in the window focused towards the nasty neighbor's house .

Tiggy-cat said:

Hi all. I would like people's opinions on something. Looking for a unique birthday gift for my dad, in a bookstore I happened to run across a copy of Edward Gorey's the Fantod Pack, which I thought was hilarious, and since my dad enjoys EG's odd humor and artwork, I got it for him.

But now I'm thinking, since the cards mostly seem to represent dire scenarios and doom, and you really wouldn't want any of them to be true, and it hadn't ocurred to me when I bought the deck that any of them *could* be true, how would you best clarify to people who say Tarot is all "just a bunch of hooey" that the Tarot cards definitely are NOT "hooey" (as I obviously believe firmly in their reliability) but a silly deck which is not meant to be used for serious readings IS "hooey"?

Is it all based on how seriously the *reader* takes it? Because if I did a reading for a friend who thought it was just a bunch of hogwash, *her* perception wouldn't change *my* belief in the cards. I thought at first it would be based on the fact that the creator of the deck had no intentions for the cards to be taken seriously or used for "real" divination, but people sometimes use regular playing cards for divination, so that doesn't seem to explain it.

Or are these cards just as "true" as Tarot, and I'm giving my dad an evil deck full of dire predictictions for his future??

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Ok, there are a number of different questions here, so let's see....

First of all that was very kind and considerate for you to get your Dad something you knew would mesh with his tastes.

Is your father a Tarot reader? If not he may well enjoy it very much, just for the artwork.

As to your question on how I clarify to people who think Tarot is just a bunch of hooey that it is not...In short, I don't. I know what it is from my experiences, which may well differ from the experiences of others. But it is not my job to convince others. I allow other people their beliefs, just as I hope they will allow me the right to mine. We are all entitled to our beliefs and I believe in treating others as I want to be treated.

I want my beliefs treated with respect and that means I need to treat others in the same way. Whatever the truth is, they have just as much right to their beliefs as I have to mine. if their beliefs are meant to change, they will when the time is right.

If someone is open to it and asks me, I will answer their questions as honestly as I can. But I do not ever try to convince someone. I just tell them that their way of seeing it is interesting and I respect it whether or not mine is the same or not...and that is the end of it. I don't try to convince people who are inclined to believe otherwise. They have that right to choose their beliefs.

Besides someone who has strong enough views to see it as a bunch of hooey....very little chance you could change their mind, imo.

Each reader is different, I personally do not do well with the "dark" decks. But many readers do. I don't know the deck, but I presume a good reader with that kind of deck could see all kinds of things in it, not just dire predictions. The cards are not always literal, but very metaphorical as well.

The cards are not "true" or not. it's what the reader sees in them that is either true or not. What they sense there is either accurate or not. It is possible to read well with any tool that stimulates your intuition. As you said playing cards, pendulums, crystal balls, crystals....I have used all those and they have worked for me. Also I have heard of people reading with tea leaves, match sticks, seashells and many others.

No deck is "hooey" if it reads well for someone. If it reads well for a reader it is a valuable tool. The Fantod could be just that for the readers that it meshes with.

If you're trying to convince someone, I think it's more about how seriously that person takes their point of view and how sure they are that they could not possibly be wrong than with how seriously the reader is. You can't convince someone who is sure they could not possible be wrong. There is a lot of this around as society tends to teach us to mistrust what cannot be proven scientifically and well, it does portray Tarot in somewhat of a negative light. There are no shortage of people who believe that you have to be crazy to believe it could work. And anyone who believes that has likely met many more people who feel just as he does and who validate their opinion. Whether or not it's true, that can make it feel true.

I try to make it a policy personally not to even read for skeptics at all. I can't help when with a reading until they are willing to at least admit it might work.

I am not at all sure there is such a thing as a deck full of bad predictions. Each deck reads differently for different people. And someone who see the world positively is not likely to see dire predictions. But personally I find that kind of deck hard to read with.

BTW, I could not resist and went to look up the deck on AT, here

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/fantod/

It does not have to be as negative as you said. The Ancestor card does not look negative. It just looks like all the "faceless" ancestors of yours who helped shape who you are today. All the things you were taught from your parents who learnt it from their, who learnt it from theirs...etc. generations back to people you can't even imagine who they were or what they looked like. But they can influence you today.

As for the Child one, it might look a bit negative at first but it really does not have to be. Looks like a skeleton child. But I could see it as saying you should look deep inside you, and to look at the bare bones of the message your inner child is trying to tell you. That could be helpful information, it does not have to be negative. Or even like a skelton key, which is a key that would open any door. could be telling you that there was something you knew in childhood that you forgot. But when you find it again it will open doors in your life that are currently closed to you. That kind of thing....Again metaphorical.

Ladder could be about climbing to a higher spiritual level...Effigy could say you're not seeing clearly, you are seeing things the reverse of what they actually are. The number are reversed in the card. And while and effigy is representative of something or someone it is NOT that actual thing or person. It could say that you are confusing your ideas about something with the real thing. Like thinking you love someone but really you are just in love with love...

Limb could talk about someone who loves to eat, as in the expression they have a hollow leg. LOL Could be about food. Maybe asking them to eat more healthily. Or just advising someone they need to change their viewpoint as it is inaccurate and they don't have a "leg to stand on"....Which is helpful info when we are not seeing clearly and don't know it. Or saying that they are just having a "knee-jerk" reaction (reacting automatically to something without thinking) and that if they stop and think they might find another method would work better.

Anyway, the point is that no deck is necessarily negative. it's all in the eye of the beholder/reader.

And of course readings can be used for many many more things that just using them for predictions.




Babs

To the good points discussed here so far, I'd like to add my two cents.

1) The difference between the Fantod Pack and an oracle like Tarot is probably a difference of grade. It's the difference between a toy helicopter, which can even fly but not transport anybody, and a real one. According to some scholars, Tarot started just as a game, but even then it had a lot of meat --it represented virtues and planets and constellations and mythological beings, and thus constituted a sort of microcosmos-- and after it was started to be used for divination it underwent several substantial revisions. It's still a work in progress, IMHO.

Most oracles designed for that purpose attempt to somehow codify the human experience in a finite number of symbols that can then be combined. Some do it better than others, granted, but we're talking about intention here, not results.

2) That said, remember that ANYTHING can be used for the purpose of divination --and has! Seashells, patterns in the sand, the flight of birds, animal entrails, yarrow stalks, smoke, clouds, playing cards... So why not the Fantod Pack?

Wow, sorry for letting the thread drop. I went on vacation and didn't realize there were new posts, so here we go:

SunChariot, my dad is not a reader at all. I was just browsing in a used bookstore hoping to find something I thought he'd enjoy, and since I know he enjoys Gorey's work, that was a definite yes, just for entertainment value. (Aside note, he liked ut skot but ut turned out he already had it, as someone else had the same thought at some other time).

But then it made me ponder the question of why I personally would see thar deck as just like a meaningless, amusing entertainment despite all it's apparently sinister "meanings", when of course I personally do take Tarot reading as a perfectly serious means of divination, and of acquiring helpful information and advice.

Like you, I also don't feel the need to try and convince anyone who doesn't agree. It's just an interesting difference that I was curious of people thoughts on.

FLizarraga said:

To the good points discussed here so far, I'd like to add my two cents.

1) The difference between the Fantod Pack and an oracle like Tarot is probably a difference of grade. It's the difference between a toy helicopter, which can even fly but not transport anybody, and a real one. According to some scholars, Tarot started just as a game, but even then it had a lot of meat --it represented virtues and planets and constellations and mythological beings, and thus constituted a sort of microcosmos-- and after it was started to be used for divination it underwent several substantial revisions. It's still a work in progress, IMHO.

Most oracles designed for that purpose attempt to somehow codify the human experience in a finite number of symbols that can then be combined. Some do it better than others, granted, but we're talking about intention here, not results.

2) That said, remember that ANYTHING can be used for the purpose of divination --and has! Seashells, patterns in the sand, the flight of birds, animal entrails, yarrow stalks, smoke, clouds, playing cards... So why not the Fantod Pack?

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GRRR! I had just typed a long response and it somehow vaporized, so here I go again:

FLizarraga, thank you. It seems the thoughts on why this deck should or should not be taken seriously as a divination tool are in 2 groups: either it should not, because its creator never intended it to be and was not making any attempts to codify any particular principles or archetypes with it, or it *could* be, depending on what the reader gleans from it.

But now that my dad has returned it, I'm half tempted to go back to the store and buy it if it's still there, since I found it very enjoyable whether I gained any insights in life from it or not!