I'm Ruined!

First of all, I have to say: thank you, CassieR-1, for showing me some elemental attributions I never would have thought of! I just love playing with ideas...thinking thoughts I've never thought before is fun and enlightening. Plus, it's like brain yoga: it keeps our minds nimble and active, when they otherwise tend to stiffen up as we get older.

The fact is, all the elemental systems are totally artificial - we made'em up. While it's true that there are four forms of matter visible to us (solid, liquid, gas, energy), what they "symbolize" to us is all to do with our minds and language, which are (to say the least) highly variable with culture and individual.

That said, I must admit that I love "alternate" elemental systems. I've seen Wands as earth before (trees, after all, grow in the earth!), and as air (they reach into the sky, they produce oxygen, etc.). I've seen Cups as fire because they can hold fire (braziers, oil lamps). But now you've showed me a couple I never would have imagined: Cups as air, because we exchange ideas over drinks...Coins as water, because of seagoing merchants...brilliant!


...but that doesn't help you much. Excuse my enthusiasm. Perhaps this may be of some assistance:


All the RWS elemental attributions are based on how the tools are used, pretty much:

Cups carry water. We can't carry liquid unless it's in a vessel.

Wands carry fire. A burning branch is the first source of fire for humans. (As Grizabella said, wands = torches is a very apt image.)

Coins carry wealth - real, permanent wealth is tied to the land; we need the products of the earth (plants, animals) to survive. Coins are just a handy token to use to exchange the goods we get from the earth.

Swords...well, okay...swords don't carry air. My take on the RWS system falls down a bit there. They are swung through the air...(I actually used to picture "helicopter blades" to myself when I was first learning Tarot.) But sword blades are sharp, cold, and penetrating, like a fierce winter wind; words, and ideas, can cut like knives.

Swords are also the most artificial of the four suits; we can run across the others in the world: shells, fallen branches, even lumps of precious metal can be found in nature. Blades, however, we have to create, using our minds to envision, plan, and act. Much more than the other three suits, they are products of our thinking minds.

Swords are also symbols of conflict - and though conflict strikes us now as "fiery," before we invented firearms, the most violent phenomena we could (regularly) witness were all atmospheric in nature. Therefore, many English metaphors for conflict are related to storms and the weather: tempest in a teapot, storm's a'brewing, thunderclouds on the horizon, wait 'till things blow over...etc.

Also (I just thought of this), as far as we know, the earliest form of iron humans were able to use was from meteorites. Little wonder that (iron) blades are associated with air - they have (quite literally) fallen to us from the sky!

Hope this helps, and thanks again for the new ideas.

ShinyAeon said:

All the RWS elemental attributions are based on how the tools are used, pretty much:

Cups carry water. We can't carry liquid unless it's in a vessel.

Wands carry fire. A burning branch is the first source of fire for humans. (As Grizabella said, wands = torches is a very apt image.)

Coins carry wealth - real, permanent wealth is tied to the land; we need the products of the earth (plants, animals) to survive. Coins are just a handy token to use to exchange the goods we get from the earth.

Swords...well, okay...swords don't carry air.

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Oh, I really like this, ShinyAeon. As I was thinking about the suit of swords in relation to what you've written, the following occurred to me:

Though it is true that swords do not carry "air", they most certainly can carry conflict.

If one is using air as a symbol of ideas and conflict, swords can most certainly be used to carry that conflict from one place to another. A neighboring king with a grudge can send his knights to your door to get his message across.

EDIT TO ADD:

I wonder what people might think about using "Banners" or "Flags" as a symbol for air in a tarot deck. After all, a flag is nothing without air to unfurl it, and flags and banners are imprinted with the symbols of various nations and/or organizations, each with their own ideologies and philosophies, and each way of thinking having the potential to create conflict with the other.

Thoughts? Has anyone seen a tarot deck using flags or banners for air?

I personally like to stay as close to the roots as possible. Without going into the history of it all, these are the suits of swords, coins, batons (arrows?) and chalices of the Visconti decks (Italian tradition). Although I have a deck with feathers to indicate air, and roses to indicate water, oaks to indicate earth, and arrows for fire (Incidental Tarot).

As I mentioned above, I personally link the suits to their characters (mind, spirit, physical energy, material resources), and then these characters to the elements. I can see that you are talking a direct elements to suits connection.

CassieR-1:

The Rider deck is chock full of visual cues that should keep you on track with the new-to-you set of elemental associations. Notice all the clouds in the suit of swords, for example? Just let the images guide you, to begin with. This is the best way to begin. You can enrich your knowledge and skill with tomes and essays as you go.

[Aside: I have a deck that goes swords/water, cups/air, batons/fire, coins/earth. Again, the deck has plenty of visual cues, so even though I felt really confused to see them, the images moved along the reading just fine. A weird, yet refreshing experience in some ways!]

Some decks are different: the World Tree Tarot has Cups as Water, Swords as Fire (like you) Pentacles as Air and Wands as Earth.

So find a deck that shares your view or work in your OWN meanings in the deck you use.

barb

Very interesting. I never thought of Cups as Air nor Pentacles/Coins as Water.

I tend to keep Pentacles/ Coins as Earth and Cups/Chalices as Water but change Swords to Fire (because of the forging process.) and Wands/Batons with Air (because you wave your wand in the air.)

I've never understood how swords could be air and wands fire. Like Brian Williams, I'd say that any Medieval or Renascence thinker, asked which element to associate with swords, would instantly reply "fire". He and Mat Myers (Art Nouveau Tarot) both used swords = fire, wands = air, cups = water, and coins = earth. The Waite associations only go back to the 19th century, as does associating suites and elements in the first place.

Cups as air is not new. Eudes Picard used cups = air, swords = water, wands = fire, and coins = earth back in 1909, but he didn't explain why. There are several packs which use his suite designs: Crystal tarot, Balbi tarot, Gran taroco esoterico.

Originally the suites come from the Turkish coins, swords, cups, and polo sticks: trade, war, feasting, and sport as suitable occupations for a Turkish gentleman!

CassieR-1 said:

Does anyone else see Swords as Fire, Cups as Air, Wands as Earth and Coins as Water?

A long time ago I stumbled on this suite arrangement and it made so much sense to me:
Swords as used in passion and are made by fire (Fire), Cups or drinks are often used when people are talking and sharing ideas (Air), Wands or Batons were used in the fields by farmers (Earth), and back when tarot was made or popular as a gaming deck water or ships were the main way of making money (Water).

I loved it! It's easy for my newbie brain to remember, was very understandable, and quickly stuck with me. I used it for a bit but, me being me, I missed my other tarots, so I picked up my Waites and tried to give myself a refresher course only to learn... Rider-Waite meanings are EXTREMELY CHALLENGING to learn now. Like next level, equivalent to learning a foreign language, challenging!

I was looking at the suites I used to know and thinking, "How in the heck is Sword's Air?"

Has anyone else anyone experienced anything like this before and how did you break it? Or do you have any advise for those who learn another set of meanings before learning the RWS meanings?

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Your reality is your dream and no one else's, so live your dream.

For me its quite simple...Swords is air, as when you pull a sword its in the air.
Or if its a wand its fire as wood can turn to fire.
Pents is earth as its physical based.
And cups is water to do with emotions which are like water quite unpredictable, and up and down