New at Trionfi.com

Huck

kwaw said:
But how trustworthy is the report when the only illustration of one of these 'tarot' decks is not a tarot deck at all? How safe are the other references then?

Kwaw

As I read it, both entries are independent to each other.

One should be a city document or legend from 1574 (collected by the author), the other an opinion of the author around 1850 (based on "not enough" playing card history background, so obviously in error about Aluette cards - which should be natural for playing card history development in 1850).

Naturally still the author might have followed generally the opinion, that Spanish cards are always Tarot cards, so he would have translated "2 Spanish decks in 1574" were "2 Tarot decks in 1574" - then it would have been a related error.

Perhaps this Leyden reference once will be detected, who knows? For the moment the keywords "Leyden, Tarot" don't lead to anything.

Generally I think, that Dutch and Belgish literature has some hidden treasures for playing card research. Just cause neither German or other farther developed playing card research didn't look very much in this direction.

Do you know Jan van den Berghe? A long text about playing cards, around the time of Meister Ingold. Playing card history overlooked it, till we detected it (as far I know) ... although there is no great mystery about this text in Dutch language. It was republished last century.
 

Huck

I've updated

http://trionfi.com/0/p/87/

adding and changing something to it according Kwaw's earlier suggestion and from some research around the date 1574 in Leyden.

Also updated

http://trionfi.com/0/p/42/

contains the description of 2 unknown card decks 15th, 16th century.

"The two unknown decks are of special interest. <br><br>
Nr. 103 is a very small deck, which measures 2 1/4" x 1 1/4" (? perhaps 5.5 x 3 cm), painted woodcut, and it shows figures of various ranks, passions (envy, avarice, jealousy, agony, desire, etc.), castles, a marriage, justice and similar allegories, so reminding in parts Tarot motifs. It is dated "from 15th century". The containing casket carries the shield of Steiermark.

Nr. 106 is a very big card game (? 1 foot, 9 inches x 1 foot, 3 inches) with 48 cards, painted, on the back is the shield of the arch duke Ferdinand as woodcut. The 4 suits are fruit trees, the figures are monkeys."
 

Ross G Caldwell

Huck said:
I've updated

http://trionfi.com/0/p/87/

adding and changing something to it according Kwaw's earlier suggestion and from some research around the date 1574 in Leyden.

Also updated

http://trionfi.com/0/p/42/

contains the description of 2 unknown card decks 15th, 16th century.

"The two unknown decks are of special interest. <br><br>
Nr. 103 is a very small deck, which measures 2 1/4" x 1 1/4" (? perhaps 5.5 x 3 cm), painted woodcut, and it shows figures of various ranks, passions (envy, avarice, jealousy, agony, desire, etc.), castles, a marriage, justice and similar allegories, so reminding in parts Tarot motifs. It is dated "from 15th century". The containing casket carries the shield of Steiermark.

Nr. 106 is a very big card game (? 1 foot, 9 inches x 1 foot, 3 inches) with 48 cards, painted, on the back is the shield of the arch duke Ferdinand as woodcut. The 4 suits are fruit trees, the figures are monkeys."

Interesting. The unknown decks probably still exist; perhaps we can find illustrations of them somewhere, or contact the museum.

A deck almost two feet high! Maybe made for some kind of pageant.

Ross
 

Huck

Ross G Caldwell said:
Interesting. The unknown decks probably still exist; perhaps we can find illustrations of them somewhere, or contact the museum.

A deck almost two feet high! Maybe made for some kind of pageant.

Ross

Maybe they were party cards for special festivities, letting onlookers participate in the game. Or they were simply decorations, perhaps for courtly theatre. Orcasionally there were playing cards ballets, dances, I've read.

We heard the story, that the collection of the Altenburger Spielkartenmuseum got lost during WWII, robbed by Russians ... and the story that somebody with contact to the playing card collector scene met somebody in a train, who told, that in the winter 1945/46, which is said to have been very cold that year in Eastern Prussia (where the winter is generally very cold), there was a train wagon full of playing cards and other documents and that they burnt them to save their lives against the cold.

A very special playing card burning. I don't know about a list of the Museum content. Actually Schreiber listed all playing cards of 15th century (we're not sure, if all these cards survived) ... Schreiber wrote ca. 1432, the book was published 1438 posthum. Was it a finished manuscript? Austria and Germany were parted, it's not clear, if the information channel worked between Vienna and German museums.

Another point - perhaps much more interesting - are these documents somewhere in Prag or there, where ...

http://trionfi.com/0/p/95/

.. the author F.L. Hübsch had seen them, which report variously the existence of playing in Bohemia since 1340.
The missing communication between 1945 - 1990 between Germany and CSSR likely caused, that such material didn't become known to German after-war playing card research. But real ecvidence in this matter would open complete new perspectives.
 

Huck

REALLY IMPORTANT:

Michael Dummett published in artibus et historie Nr. 56 (2007) ...

http://www.artibusethistoriae.org/?menu=art&gdzie=artibusIssue&id=57

... "Six XV-Century Tarot Cards: Who Painted Them? " (pp.15 - 26)

an essay about the "six added" (trionfi.com terminology) cards in the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo Tarocchi.

In his usual excellent manner he explores the evolution and errors about the statement of Leopoldo Cicognara, who presented a document, which couldn't be found. This takes most of the article.

In the final statement of the essay (about 1/3 of a page) he suggests as most probable for the painter of the six cards Benedetto Bembo, brother of Bonifacio, who was first mentioned 1462 and is suggested to have painted in a Ferrarese style.

Dummett than offers the suggestion, that the whole deck was produced in the range of the years 1462 - 1468. No replacement (as earlier suggested), no adding process (as the 5x14-thesis suggested), just as a unique cooperation of two brothers to fulfill a commission of Bianca Maria Visconti.


******

My comment:

Naturally with this the much discussed thesis, that Tarot iconographically found its form in "ca. 1450" lost his final "50 % piece of evidence" (as this can be regarded the whole Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-deck) and has now nothing real which supports it before 1462 (well, as far Michael Dummett is regarded as the deciding authority in this matter).

We still suggests, that the 6 cards were an addition and were added likely in the year 1465 (a suggestion, which exists since 1989). In the question of the painter personality we've still no suggestion.

With no word Dummett comments the work of Trionfi.com in this point.

****
One important point for our collection of Trionfi dates: Michael Dummett gives 1451 for the Malatesta-letter to Bianca Maria Visconti. We have their a "1452".

Perhaps we've an error in this question.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Thanks Huck!

I'm reading it now...

Ross
 

Ross G Caldwell

Here are the best images I have been able to find of the two works of Benedetto Bembo that Dummett refers to (he does not illustrate them in the article) -

benedettobembo1.jpg

"Madonna dell'Umiltà e angeli musicanti"

See -
http://www.castagna.it/musei/mal/it/index.htm
"Visita alla collezione" (top of page) -
then "Sala V"

benedettobembo2.jpg

"Polittico di Torchiara" (Polytych of Torchiara), 1462

See -
http://www.milanocastello.it/ita/salaXX.html

Edited -
Here is another one of Benedetto's from Cremona, showing the same depiction of chubby baby as in the PMB "World" card (and other similar characteristics) -
benedettocremona1.jpg

"Madonna introno col Bambino" Cremona, Museo Civico
http://www.alfonsomariadeliguori.net/mediateca/pinacoteca/IS77IS2006.html

Ross
 

Huck

http://trionfi.com/0/p/44

A satire from the "Connaisseur" in 1754 about duel and gambling

http://trionfi.com/0/p/43/

An analysis of the "gambling"-appearances in Vespasiono da Bisticci's biographies.

*****
Well, all what I additionally read in these days about Florence and its society after the start of the explorations about the "Charles VI deck in Florence" speaks - just my opinion - not from the early broad success of a Trionfi deck in 1450. We've a wave of Petrachism, no doubt, since the begin of the 1440's. But generally, these people in Florence more or less stay conservative till the early 60's - like Bisticci. "Chess is not a fortune game" then - so it's allowed. This might add
to the suspicion, that the Charles VI deck (and its Florentian precursor of 1450) had a chess-structure and 16 trumps

I don't see a real chance for the Charles VI deck already in 1450. 1463 seems to be well placed.
 

Huck

It's not really new at Trionfi.com, but all somehow related ...


Michael S. Howard wrote recently a few things about the 5x14-theory ... and developed his own opinion about it.


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--------------------

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