Elemental Dignities and the Majors

Sophie

Thanks for taking the time to answer my crotchety old maidish questions, Similia

similia said:
Actually Crowley and Duquette both refer to the modern planets. Crowley added them to tables in the Book of Thoth as well as in Magick, where earlier (in Liber 777) they were not included. There is a quote on pg 277 of the book of Thoth about how they perfect the tenfold system of the sephiroth and its relation to ceremonial magick, followed by charts.

Yep - found it, thanks! Very passing glance - do you think he was still working on that new system when he died?

similia said:
Of course neither of them go so far as to link the modern planets with the three mother letters/elemental trumps. This is commonly done with GD based decks however, and the attributions RW gave are the typical ones.

Commonly done by whom? Who started it? On what basis?

similia said:
I don't think there is an attempt to update the thoth, but rather to update the tarot tradition started by the GD, which may then be applied to the Thoth (being the most perfect example of that tradition updated ) I think the interpration of the cards and the planets support it very well also.

Well, if justified. But where are they justified? I'm not saying it ain't so..simply, I want to see the discussions & logic behind the evolution.

similia said:
Uranus as the ruler of Aquarius goes ideally with the Air-Fool, and the element is consistent. The myth of Ouranos also fits rather well with the Fool.

It does have merit - at least, from my superficial knowledge of astrology I can see that. From my rather less superficial knowledge of myth I see merit but also problems. But I would like to see, for instance, a discussion of aleph/Uranus. Of the possibility of linking the whole notion of Ain Soph with Uranus. Does it exist? As I said, I see there would be bridges...but I'd like to understand their engineering

similia said:
Neptune as the ruler of Pisces also fits very well with the Water-Hanged Man and the element is consistent.

Yes. That I can see for the water - I am less convinced about the mythic resonance of Neptune in this card when set next to the Dying God - but then I was never much convinced about the astrological descriptions I read of Neptune when compared to the complex, violent & primeval sea god.

similia said:
Pluto would be the exception to the rule, attributed to the Fire trump Aeon, but ruling the water sign Scorpio. The meanings of Pluto support its application to the Aeon card very well though.

I think I have most trouble with that card - conceptually. Still trying to wrap my mind around it. But yes, the idea of death/rebirth fits Pluto very well.

It's always been strange to me to understand Scorpio as a water sign, its emblems being the scorpion, the snake and the eagle, neither of which are water animals (well, there are water-snakes).

similia said:
Scorpio's tradition rularship of Mars recognises the firey aspect of Scorpio, and I think would explain the association of Aeon to the water element made, although I would not agree with that one personally for the reasons you outlined.

Yes, I can see the Mars-Pluto-Scorpio association. I think the real problem is the attribution of Scorpio to water, which fits symmetrically, but does not fit either of its ruling planet attribution...although there is an old mythopoetic tradition that links death and water.

similia said:
The Empress attribution of Venus would justify relating her to Air (via it's rulership of Libra), which is also fitting with the position of Daleth/Libra/Adjustment communicating between Chockman (Knight) and Binah (Queen). I prefer to think of her as Earth, although I can see strong connections with water also, given the relationship of Water/Mother/Salt. Crowley also references both these elements in his discussion of The Empress along with Earth.

Yes, I saw that. The elemental quicksilver (mercury) was the one I always associated to water, since in alchemical lore it is said to originate on the moon (mother as well), and is said to take the shape of a half woman, half-water-serpent during transformation (as per Paracelsus). Salt is a very earthy element in alchemy. But Crowley always likes to take things at a tangeant, which makes his discussions so worthwhile!

similia said:
From the earlier part of this thread, I had been contemplating the difference between the separation of the qualities of "women" in the trumps II and III, compared to the separation applied to "men" in trumps I and IV. I haven't decided yet how I think about it, but it has been interesting to think about. Of course the argument from Helvetica that we should be bound by the rules of our dead patriachal founder is an intersting one to contemplate in itself

LOL at the idea of Uncle Al as a dead Patriarch. I say simply - if we take the Thoth further in the Uranian fashion - and I'm all for evolution! - then let's take a leaf out of our Aquarian friends' books, and explain - be ready to back-up new attributions with logic as well as imagination

Empress as Air is not that strange to me, actually, since in the Marseille tradition the Empress is the intellectual creative, who brings forth out of her mind as much as her body. And the colours of the card are not very earthy!

Grigori

grrr, working out this quote thing is a nightmare

Crotchety but not old maidish

Helvetica said:
Yep - found it, thanks! Very passing glance - do you think he was still working on that new system when he died?

Although Pluto (as the last of the modern planets in this discussion at least) was discovered in 1930, none of the modern planets were considered very much in astrology till after WWII. So we have about 10years of scientific consideration of Pluto before The Book of Thoth, but none of the 3 planets were really brought into astrology/magick until after the Book of Thoth.

My feeling based on no actual fact, is that if the Book of Thoth was written 20 years later, Crowley would agree with their inclusion, largely due to his love of a perfectly balanced system. Logically I can only say that Crowley didn't really have time to consider them in a significant way, and I have been told that his knowledge on astrology was not his strongest point.

What I can find on the topic seems to imply that Pluto was not seriously considered until the 70's by astrologers, another 20 years later. I'd love to hear more from anyone who can say more on the timeline in astrology...

Given that there was little information magickally on the three planets at the time of Crowley, I assume that his incorporating them into magick or the tarot at all is somewhat revolutionary, and I think you may be asking too much of him to have written more at that time.

Helvetica said:
Commonly done by whom? Who started it? On what basis?!

The only book I have on the topic is Hazel's Tarot Decoded. She has the same system, but cites it as her own suggestions (and also falsley atribute the same ideas to Crowley from the Book of Thoth). It was published in 2004 so is very recent. Jonathon Dee (Tarot Mysteries 2003) suggests the modern planets were included into Tarot in the 80's but does not cite where he gets the date from, nor who may have started the tradition. I've read them elswhere but forget where. Lets hope someone knows and speaks up.

On a side note, I noticed in the Celestial Tarot my friend just purchased, the moderns have also been included in the minors (very differently than the GD structure). Unfortunately the LWB does not highlight the creators reasons for doing so, nor could I spot a system or correlation with the tradition meanings in GD derived decks.

Helvetica said:
It does have merit - at least, from my superficial knowledge of astrology I can see that. From my rather less superficial knowledge of myth I see merit but also problems. But I would like to see, for instance, a discussion of aleph/Uranus. Of the possibility of linking the whole notion of Ain Soph with Uranus. Does it exist? As I said, I see there would be bridges...but I'd like to understand their engineering

I would like to see the same. The relationship of Aleph to Air/Fool has been rather well argued by Kwaw recently and I could do no better and shall not try

A peeve of mine with those who argue against the merits of the GD system is that they typically consider the Qabalah removed from the Astrology, or the reverse. Considering the two simultaneously answers many of their questions in my mind. Perhaps also in this case you may consider the Fool the mediator between the two for some satisfaction on the topic.

The rather interesting thing that Crowley says, is the inclusion of the modern 3 planets perfects the TENfold system of the Qabalah. But if we include the three moderns in addition to the 8 planets already present we have 11...

My first thought was to assign Uranus to the veils, and given the depicition of them on the Fool card in the Thoth it is justified IMO. I have discussed often with Wizzle her ideas of Uranus as Daath, which also bears much merit. From the Fool card this could also be visualised from the cups in the fools hands (Fire in the place of Chokmah, water in the Place of Binah (if we consider the Fool himself as Daath, and the sepiroth's relation to the Knight and Queen as Fire and Water). That leaves us with a crocodile for Geburah (perhaps..) and a tiger for Chesed (no clue on that one...)

Helvetica said:
Yes. That I can see for the water - I am less convinced about the mythic resonance of Neptune in this card when set next to the Dying God - but then I was never much convinced about the astrological descriptions I read of Neptune when compared to the complex, violent & primeval sea god.

Yes, I agree that the mythology of Neptune does not fit very well with the Hanged Man, nor with the planet astrologically either. The Hanged Man does fit very well with The Moon/Pisces however.

Helvetica said:
But yes, the idea of death/rebirth fits Pluto very well.

From my readings today it seem that in the 70's even though Pluto was acknowledged as the ruler of Scorpio, Mars was more often considered by most astrologers. Even today it seems Mars may be considered the day-to-day ruler of Scorpio, and Pluto its spiritual ruler. Perhaps Mars rules the scorpion, and Pluto rules the eagle

The very interesting thing to ponder, is that Aeon, the Fire Trump, shows us the key characters according to Crowley of the new Aeon, which is the Aeon of Fire. If Crowley was designing another deck for the next Aeon (not fire) would it retain the attribute of Fire in his mind?... Curious minds would like to know that!

Helvetica said:
It's always been strange to me to understand Scorpio as a water sign, its emblems being the scorpion, the snake and the eagle, neither of which are water animals (well, there are water-snakes).

Yeah me too, not to start on The Star as an Air sign :laugh:

The image of Death/Scorpio underwater in the Thoth is a handy one for me when thinking about the issue, and would tie in with your own observed tradition. Also the function of the Death card in Alchemy combines both heat and damp which is useful to me to consider.

Helvetica said:
if we take the Thoth further in the Uranian fashion - and I'm all for evolution! - then let's take a leaf out of our Aquarian friends' books, and explain - be ready to back-up new attributions with logic as well as imagination

Actually one of my other pet peeves in tarot books is the complete lack of referencing in most texts. Another thing to rather love Duquette for providing amply, and often with commentary ((((Lon))))

I do however think that imagination is rather of more validity than logic when it comes to divination, but that is perhaps a different thread

The inclusion of the moderns is resonant for me, and that is more important to me than anything else. If we only used things is tarot we can find the staring point for, we'd all be reading tea leaves after all

Helvetica said:
Empress as Air is not that strange to me, actually, since in the Marseille tradition the Empress is the intellectual creative, who brings forth out of her mind as much as her body. And the colours of the card are not very earthy!

This card looks rather watery to me really and not much of Air or Earth. There is a strong tradition in Homeopathy to associate Chloride with Mother, which resonates with me obviously. Also the older name of chloride (Muriaticum) provides yet another M word associated with both mother and water, and supports the argument of Mem=Water=Hanged Man further in my mind. This is part of my musings on the Empress vs The High Priestess. But I think I shall not start a gender discussion with you dear lady, I would be too afraid

Sophie

Similia - just wanted to thank you for taking the time to walk me through all this. I still have questions, but my mind's full of bureaucracy today (sigh), so poor Crowley is having to fight for air.

I'm also interesting in musing about the HP & the Empress. To me, they are obviously two sides of the same coin - we might see them as the two fcets of Isis. Does that help with elements? Well, off to open a couple of Egyptian mythology books

More later.

ps - yes, I've been following Kwaw's wonderful exposition about Aleph/Fool.

Grigori

Helvetica said:
Similia - just wanted to thank you for taking the time to walk me through all this. I still have questions, but my mind's full of bureaucracy today (sigh), so poor Crowley is having to fight for air.

Well you've already more than exhausted my ability to answer, but I would love some impetus to study further and would especially love it if some of the Thoth heavy weights would speak up (Yes, that means you if you are reading this!! Go on!! :thumbsup:

)

Helvetica said:
I'm also interesting in musing about the HP & the Empress. To me, they are obviously two sides of the same coin - we might see them as the two fcets of Isis. Does that help with elements? Well, off to open a couple of Egyptian mythology books

The rather interesting thing I have only realised today is we have two primary Male archetypes, Air and Fire (Magician and Emperor) and two primary female Archetypes, Water and Earth (High Priestess and Empress). So all four elements are accounted for, with the typical gender assignments of the elements respected. (Of course Crowley also gives us the Hermit (earth ruled by the Air/Magician) and the Star (Air) as the remaining cards in which gender is significant).

It would seem to me the Magician (air) progresses (a very carefully chosen word

) into The Emperor (fire) and the High Priestess (water) progresses into The Empress (earth). Its a rather interesting way to look at a progression elementally, although not the same directions as we would usually in respect the courts. The thing that causes the change reflects rather a lot of gender bias perhaps.

Helvetica said:
ps - yes, I've been following Kwaw's wonderful exposition about Aleph/Fool.

Yes I realise you have been there, but rather meant to encourage others to read it also when considering this threads topic. Perhaps providing a link to his summation may have been a good idea as it is particularly useful and to the point also, or to even the thread in its entirety. *hits self in head*

Have fun with your Egyptian mythology books, and may your bureaucratic drama fade away also.

thinbuddha

This has become an interesting discussion.

It has occured t me that the confusion about which element to assign to certain of the majors is that they are assigned to planets, and the planets themselves do not have elemental attributions. But the sun signs do- So, would it be completely insane to assign The Empress as being attributed to water when her planet (Venus) happens to be residing within a water sign?

I know- it means that one has to keep track of astrology... maybe it becomes too cumbersome a method for using elemental dignities, but it has a certain romance to it all the same.

wizzle

Good Website

I think this website does a nice job in discussing ED's and has what I consider the right list for the majors:

http://tarotstudies.50webs.com/elemental_dignity_basics.shtml

rainwolf

And this one too:

http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/14sum.htm

thinbuddha

rainwolf said:
And this one too:

http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/14sum.htm

Yeah- Supertarot- I have his book, and that is where my original confusion came from. There is a descrepency between his book and his web site.

wizzle

thinbuddha said:
This has become an interesting discussion.

It has occured t me that the confusion about which element to assign to certain of the majors is that they are assigned to planets, and the planets themselves do not have elemental attributions. But the sun signs do- So, would it be completely insane to assign The Empress as being attributed to water when her planet (Venus) happens to be residing within a water sign?

I know- it means that one has to keep track of astrology... maybe it becomes too cumbersome a method for using elemental dignities, but it has a certain romance to it all the same.

The answer to your question is yes, it would be insane. Venus is primarily an earthy planet and secondarily associated with air. Sun signs in the context of tarot majors are totally inappropriate.

One should not confuse an astrological sign such as Taurus or Libra with a planet, such as the sun, moon, etc. IN the sign. For the most part, the sun sign astrology so beloved of the pop press is unmitigated garbage. As Steven Forrest so correctly put it, you are not "a Capricorn" you are "Capricorning." The sun is only ONE planet in a chart. Bah, humbug.

Grigori

heheheh Mention sun-signs and in comes grumpy-wizzle-scrooge

Thin buddha, do you mean that if the planet Venus where in someones natal chart in a water sign/house (e.g. Pisces) you would think of Venus in a watery way when reading for that particular person?

I think that idea has merit in a way, cause that person will express Venus in a watery way. It does of course mean you would have to study each person chart before each reading, and if you used different charts besides the natal, it would get very complex very quickly.

The system we spoke about before, with planet rulerships mostly tell you the element of a planet. e.g. Saturn rules Capricorn, and both are Earth elements. Capricorn is assigned to The Devil XV so that card is earth. Saturn is assigned to The Universe XXI so that card is also Earth. The Universe is also assigned the planet Earth itself, as well as the Element Earth (so heaps of Earthy energy there). The meanings of Saturn also suggest it is an Earthy planet.

I think this is a simpler system, especially for a non astrologer, and only requires you to learn the basics of astrology and it's elements. And if you don't go around cutting the borders of your deck right away, then most of the information is written on the card to help you remember.

Elemental Dignities and the Majors

Sophie

Grigori

Sophie

Grigori

thinbuddha

wizzle

rainwolf

thinbuddha

wizzle

Grigori