Order of the Trumps....

The Order of the Trumps - My 2nd question

As a newbie to Tarot, I would like to see what people think about the trumps being in an order representing something like the “Evolution of the Soul”, “the Fools Journey,” etc.

In my readings, it is apparent that many folks think that the numbered order corresponds to this sequence. For example, l have a wonderful little book by Micheline Stuart, The Tarot Path to Self-Development, in which she goes into the order of the trumps in reverse! - illustrating the soul’s journey to mastery. Her analysis is based on her Gurdjieff work. Other readings attempt to show the evolution starting with The Magician as the first step, etc. etc. You are probably all familiar with these theories.

IMHO, all of these writers start to engage in quite convoluted linguistic, psychological, or spiritual gymnastics to fit the order into a scheme; the order of a few cards make sense, then it quickly breaks down. Pretty quickly the attempts veer away from what is actually depicted in the cards, into flights of fancy. (I am referring mainly to pre-RW cards, and more the original Marseille type decks.)

I rather feel the Trumps are like the letters in the alphabet, there is a set order for convenience, but there is no esoteric meaning in ‘abcdefg’……., a is not more or less evolved than ‘m’ or ‘z’. The letters (Trumps) can be combined to make many meaningful stories/words/poems, and are depictions of images/stories that were popular in Medieval times.

While I can be as mystical as any, it seems to me this more commonsense approach makes the most sense…..
What do you think?

The numerical order does have a deep meaning, ime. Just look at birth cards, annual cards etc.

But this is not to say that other arrangements aren't meaningful as well.

josefskye said:

....,.(I am referring mainly to pre-RW cards, and more the original Marseille type decks.).....

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The numbering of the Marseille Trumps is identical to that of the Waite and Golden Dawn Trumps except for the interchange of Justice and Strength.

Of course, the developers of the Marseille (and other early decks) may not have been totally aware of the significance of the ordering. However, since the early decks probably were intended for card games, not divination, there should be nothing whatsoever to deter the modern Tarot user from attaching significance to the order.

Those who have no inclination to learn about the history of the development of the Tarot are all too eager to adopt the tabula rasa approach to reading the Marseille, but it seems to me that to ignore the Tarot structure (such as the order of the Trumps) is a simplification so extreme as to amount to artificiality. One may as well use some random oracle deck instead of Tarot.

reply

Richard: can you give me a cogent, brief description of what the order conveys? keeping in mind that the order has changed from the original 15th century tarots....

josefskye said:

Richard: can you give me a cogent, brief description of what the order conveys? keeping in mind that the order has changed from the original 15th century tarots....

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What the order conveys to me is off limits for this forum and would only stir up controversy anyhow. (We get enough of that in the daily news.)

I did not intend to imply that there is universal agreement on the significance of the order, but rather that the order which evolved (for whatever reason) into that of the Tarot de Marseille is now an integral part of the Tarot structure. Eliminate the order, and you change Tarot into something else.

Feel free to disagree with my opinions, but forum debates are not my thing.

josefskye, There are many books that could give you the type of explanation you're looking for. One is:

Robert Place. The Tarot: History, Symbolism, and Divination. TarcherPerigee: 2005.