lupo138
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Four of Swords -- why not death?
lupo138
I come back to what Thirteen mentioned - up til the beginning of the 20 century death was called "Schlafes Bruder" meaning Sleep´s Brother in German.
As I experienced the same problems with that card (and still experience) here are my poor thoughts that were meant to convince me (and still don´t to 100% ):
The place is obviously a chapel or church. Why would you rest there with a sword ? In former times, before you became knighted and thus empowered to carry a sword, the "Knappe" (knave in English ?) spent at least one night in a chapel with his sword, meditating, praying, exploring his inner self. Our fellow here has his hands folded, so I am not absolutely sure that he his asleep. It could as well be, that he took a comfortable position for meditation
(that harmonize with the pillow behind his head as well, because it would not have any use for a dead person. I admit that "having no use" doesnt´t necessarily mean that it wouldn´t be done.)
But an other argument that convinces me most is rather simple: The colours are far too bright to fit Death
btw: I like your new location, firemaiden ! Unfortunately I cannot take part in the Toto thread any more, as it was moved to a thread that only subscribers can visit, subscription works via penpal and there is no penpal in Austria
As I experienced the same problems with that card (and still experience) here are my poor thoughts that were meant to convince me (and still don´t to 100% ):
The place is obviously a chapel or church. Why would you rest there with a sword ? In former times, before you became knighted and thus empowered to carry a sword, the "Knappe" (knave in English ?) spent at least one night in a chapel with his sword, meditating, praying, exploring his inner self. Our fellow here has his hands folded, so I am not absolutely sure that he his asleep. It could as well be, that he took a comfortable position for meditation
(that harmonize with the pillow behind his head as well, because it would not have any use for a dead person. I admit that "having no use" doesnt´t necessarily mean that it wouldn´t be done.)
But an other argument that convinces me most is rather simple: The colours are far too bright to fit Death
btw: I like your new location, firemaiden ! Unfortunately I cannot take part in the Toto thread any more, as it was moved to a thread that only subscribers can visit, subscription works via penpal and there is no penpal in Austria
firemaiden
Oh, the colors are bright? Can you see what's in the stained glass window? Is he in a church or a morgue? If he's not in a morgue, that could help. Is there a way to tell it's not a morgue? Although chuches have tombs in them too...
lupo138
firemaiden said:
Aaargl- I have no credit card, that is the problem. I had been working at a bank in Austria and had a credit card with no limit at all. Then I changed my job (+ 20% salary) and my bank. Now I have to wait until I am "reliable" enough. Grmpf. But thanks for your well meant advice
and right, it´s Paypal.Nearly all European churches have quite many tombs in them, whether you see them or not. The reason is, that you would try to get as close to the altar as possible, because that would enhance your cahnces at the final judgement.
Anyway I think he is within a church, because teh window seems to be very typical for that to me. On it is a saint (St Mary ?) on the left and an "ordinary human being" kneeling in front of her on the right part of the window. Behind the kneeling one is a tower or something like that. The saint´s aura of holiness is inscribed with "PAX" (peace in Latin). I do not know about the meaning of it.
Minos
Looks dead to me.
But the thing is, it's death in the past tense. In the present tense is a very exalted burial.
But the thing is, it's death in the past tense. In the present tense is a very exalted burial.
Webfoot
Firemaiden, I do enjoy your posts. (Aiofe’s too)
That Four of Swords may be just laying there (lying there?) inertly and unhelpfully, but those books sure seem to be speaking to you.
I don’t see why the four can’t have the meaning you give it—deadness, inertness. After all when the mind (swords) abstracts and defines the life out of concept or an object or even a person, it’s dead. Rigid. Done for. Perhaps enshrined in a book somewhere waiting to come to life . . . calling, calling . . ..
That Four of Swords may be just laying there (lying there?) inertly and unhelpfully, but those books sure seem to be speaking to you.
I don’t see why the four can’t have the meaning you give it—deadness, inertness. After all when the mind (swords) abstracts and defines the life out of concept or an object or even a person, it’s dead. Rigid. Done for. Perhaps enshrined in a book somewhere waiting to come to life . . . calling, calling . . ..
Macavity
That triggered a thought though... Some tombs in English churches were "double deckers" (if you will!). The top portion shows the deceased reposed in tranquility, but the lower section shows the grim reality of a (usually somewhat-horrific) effigy of a decomposing skeleton. Doubtless some kind of allegory to the "levelling" effect of death on ALL people. But clearly if the medieval mind wanted an image of death per se, they were quite able to produce such a thing... Usually something along the lines of the Tarot's "Death" card?
cuddles
i'm still sorting out all this card meaning stuff...after 4 months i'm at the point where they are more familiar to me and i'm working out how much meaning to put into what the books tell me/assist me and how much to go with my gut...knowing the gut can be misleading if you don't wanna see it!
so why can't the card mean exactly what she sees? if we are going with out intuition and NOT what books say, why isn't her vision right for her? hasn't umbrae said recently the meanings of the cards are changing for him?
what i am trying now is reading the cards with what i know and see, and going to the books if i'm having problems working something out or if i want to see what other kinds of meanings might have applied to the situation.
it's all so wonderfully confuuuuusing! lol
so why can't the card mean exactly what she sees? if we are going with out intuition and NOT what books say, why isn't her vision right for her? hasn't umbrae said recently the meanings of the cards are changing for him?
what i am trying now is reading the cards with what i know and see, and going to the books if i'm having problems working something out or if i want to see what other kinds of meanings might have applied to the situation.
it's all so wonderfully confuuuuusing! lol
Hypatia
I'm a little confused. Why can't the image simply be of dead man and still have the meaning of rest?
We are willing to see the Death card as meaning not death but a major change in your life. Death here is sort of the extreme case.
The same with the dead guy. Dying may be traumatic but what is more calm and peaceful than 'eternal rest'. Again it can be seen as the extreme case and generalised to mean a time aside from the hustle and bustle of life.
Also an old church on a sunny day is cool and peaceful and the old carven tombs make you think of all those who have died and you can sort of feel them there, at peace from the frantic roar of history.
We are willing to see the Death card as meaning not death but a major change in your life. Death here is sort of the extreme case.
The same with the dead guy. Dying may be traumatic but what is more calm and peaceful than 'eternal rest'. Again it can be seen as the extreme case and generalised to mean a time aside from the hustle and bustle of life.
Also an old church on a sunny day is cool and peaceful and the old carven tombs make you think of all those who have died and you can sort of feel them there, at peace from the frantic roar of history.
firemaiden
Before we go any futher, just in case I am causing any confusion by my silliness-- I don't want to lead anyone astray here, so let me just make a few things clear in plain words...
Please understand: I do not really think the card is about death, far from it. There are other cards that deal with death and resurrection, etc. But I want to know why the card's creators chose to represent rest in this particular way.
My attempt to forget what the written meaning of the 4 of swords card is, is just silliness on my part -- but, I think the card poses a kind of enigma, there is a mystery here for me that has not been answered.
Now I will tell you a secret: symbolic death is a very important part of many "initiation rites". I think this is supposed to be the picture of a symbolic death, as part of a sacred initiation rite. But I don't know how to prove it from the picture.
Please understand: I do not really think the card is about death, far from it. There are other cards that deal with death and resurrection, etc. But I want to know why the card's creators chose to represent rest in this particular way.
My attempt to forget what the written meaning of the 4 of swords card is, is just silliness on my part -- but, I think the card poses a kind of enigma, there is a mystery here for me that has not been answered.
Now I will tell you a secret: symbolic death is a very important part of many "initiation rites". I think this is supposed to be the picture of a symbolic death, as part of a sacred initiation rite. But I don't know how to prove it from the picture.
