Thoth Legal Battles

I Enjoyed the Wild Hunt's article about the legal battle between the O.T.O. and US Games for money from the licensing of the Thoth deck.

http://wildhunt.org/2013/04/the-thoth-deck-u-s-games-and-the-o-t-o.html

I know there was a shortage of Thoth decks a few years ago, it will be interesting to see what comes of the upcoming lawsuit with US Games. What would Thoth aficionados like to see happen to Thoth production?

Well I'd imagine no-one would like to see production stopped, but I would hope the right people are paid what they're due.

I wonder when U.S. Games was founded - I know the year was 1968, but I would like to know the actual date. I'd love to look at the astrology.

Oh dear, this looks like "unfounded claims to a significant tarot deck" part II.

I personally do not want U.S Games staking a claim on this simply because I do not want U.S Games "owning" tarot, which seems to me to be the impetus behind the claim.

Apparently they already "own" RWS, then - naturally - they would want to "own" that other branch of tarot" the Thoth. Then, I suppose all that's missing is to "own" the Marseilles.

I'm really against this. Of course I'd like the heirs to have the legal rights, if that's possible. I wonder if Lady Frieda Harris has heirs?

One of the things that consoled me about the Thoth was that - thankfully - it was produced by AG Muller and production levels were good. I simply do not trust U.S Games to issue a good quality copy of it. How long would it be before it slid into shoddy reproduction? And yes, I know Kaplan/U.S Games have done a lot to popularise tarot and (apparently) we should be grateful. But I don't think the future belongs to U.S Games, I think it belongs to smaller publishers, self-publishing and more unconventional takes on the tarot deck.

It really makes me want to stockpile AG Muller editions. Pixelated Thelema, here we come.

Le Fanu said:

Oh dear, this looks like "unfounded claims to a significant tarot deck" part II.

I personally do not want U.S Games staking a claim on this simply because I do not want U.S Games "owning" tarot, which seems to me to be the impetus behind the claim.

Apparently they already "own" RWS, then - naturally - they would want to "own" that other branch of tarot" the Thoth. Then, I suppose all that's missing is to "own" the Marseilles.

I'm really against this. Of course I'd like the heirs to have the legal rights, if that's possible. I wonder if Lady Frieda Harris has heirs?

One of the things that consoled me about the Thoth was that - thankfully - it was produced by AG Muller and production levels were good. I simply do not trust U.S Games to issue a good quality copy of it. How long would it be before it slid into shoddy reproduction? And yes, I know Kaplan/U.S Games have done a lot to popularise tarot and (apparently) we should be grateful. But I don't think the future belongs to U.S Games, I think it belongs to smaller publishers, self-publishing and more unconventional takes on the tarot deck.

It really makes me want to stockpile AG Muller editions. Pixelated Thelema, here we come.

Click to expand...

I can't see automatic moral righteousness to giving priority to someone's children for legal rights to intellectual property. The question is about OTO's claim, really.

As for US Games: Stuart Kaplan more or less singlehandedly brought tarot to the US and wrote the four volume encyclopedia of tarot which is still the single best source on tarot, bar none. Their RWS claim does have a foundation. And I also find that US Games generally has high production standards.

So in summary, LeFanu my friend, I see it differently.

PS: It's a good article, thank you Shade.
AG Mueller is part of Carte Mundi, "the world’s largest card producer"--they're not the little guy here

I always seem to end up on the side of USG in these discussions, but I love how everyone always bitches and moans about the 'Evil Empire USG' is, how they are in it all for the money, (fill in whatever cliched comment against them here), etc, etc. Everyone thinks that the World of Tarot would be a better place if USG would just shut it's doors and go away. I also can't help but notice that people sound insanely jealous when they make these accusations. 'Why does USG act like they have to own everything when they are making such a profit already' is usually the rallying cry.

IMHO, if the tables were turned and YOU were USG or some evil empire of your own creation - I really don't think you'd be selflessly saying "Oh NO - I've made ENOUGH money - let me turn this formerly copyright protected deck over to you, the ungreatful unwashed - FOR FREE! Feel free to destroy it in the name of unfettered cheap, poor quality reproductions by anyone with a printing press and some old cardstock stored in their garage! After all - why shouldn't EVERYTHING be in the public domain? Put the Thoth (and the RWS) images on everything in sight from t-shirts to glassware to tampons so that those images, too, will become as meaningless as the Smilie face - Have A Nice Day!"

I don't think so.

So you would be OK with US Games making money from your books without paying licensing?

I'm not opposed to a large publisher making lots of profits, my first deck was published by USG. USG makes a lot of profit from people licensing the images of their cards for example.

It will be interesting to see how they respond.

Let me add that the Wild Hunt web site quotes some but not all of the O.T.O statement, which in full is here (scroll down): http://www.oto.org/news0413.html

The O.T.O. claims that "U.S. Games insists on selling the absurd “three-Magician” version of the deck, with its over-saturated colors that are nothing like the original paintings" (from the oto link)

which explains why US Games responds (at the end of the Wild Hunt site):

“U. S. Games Systems is a distributor of the Crowley decks which are published by AGMuller who we understand holds a license from OTO. AGMuller no longer publishes the extra Magus cards, and they are not available. U.S. Games Systems has not received any filing of litigation. The company has not done anything wrong and it will vigorously defend against any lawsuit.”

Two points.

First, this sounds like a complex contract issue rather than a copyright issue. O.T.O characterizes US Games as exploiting a "loophole" in OTO's contract with AGMuller. I would never second-guess a matter of contract law using "common sense," especially based on one side of the story.

Second. It sounds like if OTO had been awake and in charge, we'd never have seen the other two Magus cards.

Wouldn't that be a shame.

A hypothetical question: If OTO goes ahead with it's action against US Games and wins, who would distribute the cards in the USA if US Games no longer wished to play ball?

Shade said:

So you would be OK with US Games making money from your books without paying licensing?

Click to expand...

Exactly. I could always just make a copy of his book and say it's mine. That's not the same as wanting it in the public domain. How did these decks - that were not created in the U.S - become property off a U.S company?

And, tarotbear, your notion that non-U.S Games decks are automatically cheap and poor quality is very wide of the mark. An odd thing to even imply. Wild Unknown, Flornoy, the Lismon Etteilla, Ironwing... the list is a long one.

After reading the article Im sensing that when the contract was being finalized between OTO & AGMuller they were at the same time also in negotiations with USGames to sign a sub contract which would see USGames pay royalties for their part.
The signing of the AGMuller contract would be dependent on the signing of the USGames contract, and visa versa.
If there is enough evidence from OTO to state that USGames had committed to the signing of the contract/s - and if USGames had been party to designing the contract with OTO, even though they did not sign - I think that OTO have a strong case. Just because the final deal was not signed by USGames, may not mean that it was not committed to in other terms elsewhere with signatures. With USGames refusing any communications after OTO & AGMuller had completed their contract, it may look like the non signing of the contract was very much intentional and premeditated - this may have been deliberate that USGames didn't sign.
All the contracts should have been signed at the same time, at the same table.