Questions about Aleister Crowley that inrigue me

I wanted to learn more about the creator of the Thoth deck before i get it and i first read about Crowley in Wikipedia but i said to myself that they always exagurate and bring the superficial. I watched two documentaries about Crowley and they were pretty much the same.
A bisexual genius man, drug abuser and etc. While i was searching for him i actually found a girl whos mother is a Crowley and they said he was mad too. He has 8-9 wifes and most of them went insane. He was deported from Italy because of the many animal and HUMAN sacrifices they made. His own book magic, proclaims the use of pure innocent boys as his perfect sacrifice..


A few thing that intrigue me.

1. Since he was great occultist and magician when he started the ritual in Boleskine House how can he "forgot" to banish what he summened and just leave and never come back?

2. Obviously he is misunderstood in some ways but its obvious to me that even with good intentions for some things he is a bad person. I quote Crowley "I want none of your faint approval or faint dispraise. I want blasphemy, murder, rape, revolution, anything, bad or good, but strong ". Does that sounds like a good person to you? That makes me think about the Thoth and some hidden messages from him that maybe not that good for the users. Maybe im just paranoid

I guess no one could be certain of the intentions and deeds of Crowley but doesn't some of the awful things he has done bothers you when you use his tarot deck?

I read most of the threads in the forum for Crowley and i understand the different points of view but after watching the movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12_PUYtkZBc&list=UU1t33nzwfDqFW17XKhGn5Qg&index=5 it just seems like people defend Crowley because they like the cards or one or two of his ideas.
If you havent watch the documentary and tell me if it changes your point of view and how

Regards

And that horrible film strikes again. That isn't a documentary, it is propaganda. It tells lies, half-truths, it falsifies, makes things up, presents a perverse picture. In saying Wikipedia exaggerates and quoting that film, you haven't done much. I once analyzed that film for someone on the forum, and although I ultimately only got halfway in, I wrote pages and pages. Every other sentence was practically made up.

As to, as you say, "proving you wrong," well, perhaps others will, but I won't. If you read the forum threads, you know your questions have been discussed with lesser and greater degrees of animosity, and it is ultimately up to you to make up your mind. Now, when you say "people defend Crowley because they like the cards or one or two of his ideas" is that not just as valid as "its obvious to me that even with good intentions for some things he is a bad person?"

It really is up to you to read the source material (if you choose to), read a good biography (not a film that quotes Catholic priests, and again, if you choose) and come to your own conclusions. I can assure you people on the forum are not killers rapists, nor are they stupid or misguided. They don't have a fleeting understanding of "one or two" of his ideas, either.

Ask specific questions with an open mind and you will receive specific answers. Ask people to prove your predetermined opinion wrong... well, there it is, isn't it.

Ask the right questions and the sky's the limit.

I have read one biography of Crowley and found it quite illuminating (A Magick Life by Martin Booth). Could you offer a list of what you would consider 'good' biographies of Crowley? I would like to give them a go.

Aldaren said:

I wanted to learn more about the creator of the Thoth deck before i get it and i first read about Crowley in Wikipedia but i said to myself that they always exagurate and bring the superficial. I watched two documentaries about Crowley and they were pretty much the same.
A bisexual genius man, drug abuser and etc. While i was searching for him i actually found a girl whos mother is a Crowley and they said he was mad too. He has 8-9 wifes and most of them went insane. He was deported from Italy because of the many animal and HUMAN sacrifices they made. His own book magic, proclaims the use of pure innocent boys as his perfect sacrifice..

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Hi Aldaren .. could you please explain to me what 'a girl whose mother is a Crowley' is ...here that means her mother's last name is Crowley, is that what you mean?

Aldaren said:

1. Since he was great occultist and magician when he started the ritual in Boleskine House how can he "forgot" to banish what he summened and just leave and never come back?

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I often dont banish what I summon ... the 'garden stalker' has been out there for over 15 years (always leave the house open and unlocked, even when I am way for long periods ... never been robbed, invaded, or' inappropriatly entered' ) ... hmmm , have I ever FORGOT to banish? Can't remember. Leave and never come back? Maybe he used up the bond by not paying the last 4 weeks rent ... you know, all those wild parties and rituals ... stains on the carpet, etc.

Aldaren said:

2. Obviously he is misunderstood in some ways but its obvious to me that even with good intentions for some things he is a bad person. I quote Crowley "I want none of your faint approval or faint dispraise. I want blasphemy, murder, rape, revolution, anything, bad or good, but strong ". Does that sounds like a good person to you?

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It sounds like me when I am bored. And a friend I had; we were stuck driving behind a large truck crawling up a steep mountain road ... it took soooo long ... soooo boring , 15kph for ages. Ny friend goes "I cant stand it any longer ... just go around him , overtake him."

"But I cant see anything, there might be a truck coming the other way."

"Just do it! Anything would be better than this!"

Aldaren said:

I guess no one could be certain of the intentions and deeds of Crowley but doesn't some of the awful things he has done bothers you when you use his tarot deck?

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Not at all . I actually vote for politicians who have done MUCH worse things than Crowley. Whats the concern about - a large portion of the population (if not ourselves) lives a life-style that impacts on others and causes misery suffering and starving children ... and we deal with them, their empires and products usually every day of our lives, we spend their money, drink their booze and smoke their cigarettes ... and listen to diatribes against Crowley ... or tarot generally even ... from the Catholic Church ... whose hands are quiet clean aren't they?

Aldaren said:

I read most of the threads in the forum for Crowley and i understand the different points of view but after watching the movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12_PUYtkZBc&list=UU1t33nzwfDqFW17XKhGn5Qg&index=5 it just seems like people defend Crowley because they like the cards or one or two of his ideas.
Regards

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Or they understand Crowley was a writer (check out what some other writers wrote ... or even the theme or stories behind many of the movies we watch) ... and a complex human (as are many of us) ... that expressed himself and his 'Id' honestly at times - ( I mean compared to some of the things people blurb out to me! : ... 'We should cover the whole country with Nukes from high altitude planes' (the begining of the Iraq war) "We should get rid of all the wogs and send them back where they came from" (Cronulla race riot) etc etc ...

I would rather hear Crowleys philosophies.

Carla said:

I have read one biography of Crowley and found it quite illuminating (A Magick Life by Martin Booth). Could you offer a list of what you would consider 'good' biographies of Crowley? I would like to give them a go.

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Although unpopular with some I like Reagrdie's 'The Eye in the Triangle'. - but I am a Regardie fan.

I would also recommend actually starting to delve into the study of the Thoth. His personality is all over it as well as so many of his own ideas. Once you realize what the Thoth is actually about, you'll understand more of why he's so misunderstood. Not to mention the fact that much of what he says does not mean what it sounds like on the superficial level. People take his quotes out of context and run with them. But a lot of the out of context beliefs never got squashed because it seems he simply didn't care if the masses misunderstood him. As another greatly misunderstood figure said, "Don't throw your pearls before swine."
I just think his ideas and views are so deep you really have to study them before judging them.

Aldaren said:

He has 8-9 wifes and most of them went insane.

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8-9 wives? Are you sure about that? What's your source?

Aldaren said:

He was deported from Italy because of the many animal and HUMAN sacrifices they made. His own book magic, proclaims the use of pure innocent boys as his perfect sacrifice..

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Try reading chapter XII of Magick. It's written in a highly provocative way that is designed to mislead the gullible. Also see Atu XII for a picture of the sacrifice of "a male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence."

Crowley claimed to have performed approximately 150 child sacrifices of this kind every year between 1912 and 1928! How ever did he get away with it?

Aldaren said:

Since he was great occultist and magician when he started the ritual in Boleskine House how can he "forgot" to banish what he summened and just leave and never come back?

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He probably wasn't expecting the OTO to sell Boleskine off in his absence. Breaking into houses you no longer own to close temples and banish is a bit daft, yes? On second thoughts it would have made a good headline in the tabloids. Crowley missed a trick there.

Aldaren said:

Obviously he is misunderstood in some ways but its obvious to me that even with good intentions for some things he is a bad person. I quote Crowley "I want none of your faint approval or faint dispraise. I want blasphemy, murder, rape, revolution, anything, bad or good, but strong ". Does that sounds like a good person to you? That makes me think about the Thoth and some hidden messages from him that maybe not that good for the users. Maybe im just paranoid

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Context! Context!! Context!!!

The extract you quoted is from a private letter written to his old university friend and brother-in-law, Gerald Kelly. It was written in the immediate aftermath of Crowley's failed attempt on Kanchenjunga. To say that Crowley's mood at the time was sour would be an understatement. The guy was totally p*ssed and was 'venting' to a friend. What's the big deal?

Aldaren said:

I guess no one could be certain of the intentions and deeds of Crowley but doesn't some of the awful things he has done bothers you when you use his tarot deck?

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No. But that's probably because my opinion isn't based on YouTube videos.

Aldaren said:

If you havent watch the documentary and tell me if it changes your point of view and how

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Anyone who has an 'informed' point of view is unlikely to be swayed by that documentary(?). It's target audience is people who don't have enough knowledge to actually have a point of view.

There are good biographies of Crowley, by Kaczynski and Sutin, to name but two.

But whatever you choose to think of him, the deck stands alone. It is a wonderful deck, beautiful imagery, and FULL of symbolism.

However - if you judge by a creator's character, I guess you will give up on listening to the music of Beethoven who was a really nasty bit of work. (See Beethoven and his Nephew - E and R Sterba. And it wasn't only his nephew he was vile to.) And many poets and novelists will have to come off your reading lists, too.

Judge the deck. It is stunning.

good conversation

I don't have anything earth shattering to add to this conversation, but wanted to thank you all for participating in it. I've only been reading tarot for about six months, but the Thoth deck always frightened me for some reason. I knew absolutely nothing about Crowley, so it couldn't have had to do with him personally. In any case, after purchasing about thirty decks, I broke down and bought the Thoth deck (purple) for my collection. I haven't read from it yet, though I tried to last night and got distracted before I could. I'm interested to get into the deck and the book... and I do see some value in the thoughts that you can't always take things at face value. After all, I once took "church" at face value and ended up with a big ol' mess on my hands. Thanks again for the encouragement to "get into" this deck.

In the fall of 1956 I was in a large ward in the infirmary at the University of North Carolina recovering from acute mononucleosis when I first heard of Aleister Crowley. One of the guys in the ward had a magazine containing an article entitled something like "The Wickedest Man in the World." Naturally I borrowed it and was impressed with how evil this Crowley guy was. Later I did more research on AC and was disappointed to find that not everyone agreed about his extreme wickedness, and thus I lost interest in the matter for many years.